Do Modern Collectors Need To Be Suspicious?

[Peter Bleed]

I know we are not supposed to discuss swords that are being actively offered by dealers and auction outlets, so I won't.  Still, let's consider an abstract  situation we all might see from time to time.

We discover a very reasonably priced sword with a very interesting signature of a smith that would fit in your collection. And it even has a "old" paper. The workmanship seems okay. And the signature might look okay stylistically - the 'penmanship" seems all right. But the dealer is a bit hedgy about guaranteeing the package. And The condition of the sword suggests that for a long time nobody has been willing to give the sword a new polish.

Are there too many red flags in this picture?

Peter

[Brian]

I know we are not supposed to discuss swords that are being actively offered by dealers and auction outlets, so I won't.

Never been a rule. Contrary to common belief, I do allow it tentatively and within reason.

Anyways, the usual advice would be to collect the work and not the signature. But if your collection revolves around a school or smith...I guess that would be a quandary. Hmm....

I would propose a deal with the dealer. If it passes a new shinsa fine, if it doesn't (since he is clearly not interested in a refund) I would propose a small refund/discount. It would also be important to me to know the level of knowledge of the dealer. If he's an expert, and knows his stuff...I would be more wary. If a novice, I would be inclined to give him some of the benefit of the doubt.

I'm not one who ignores all old papers. How long has the sword been out of Japan. Provenance? Out of the woodwork or from an established collector?

If it is priced according to the name and not the work, then you have a bit of a gamble. Maybe arrange to pay for a window and then decide from the workmanship evident?

There are a ton of considerations, no easy answer.

[nagamaki - Franco]

 

1) We discover a very reasonably priced sword 2) with a very interesting signature of a smith that would fit in your collection. 3) And it even has a "old" paper. 4) The workmanship seems okay. 5) And the signature might look okay stylistically - the 'penmanship" seems all right. 6) But the dealer is a bit hedgy about guaranteeing the package. 7) And The condition of the sword suggests that for a long time nobody has been willing to give the sword a new polish.

Are there too many red flags in this picture?

Peter

 

Speaking only for myself,

 

1) green

2) green

3) yellow (old paper simply means closer investigation which should be done anyway)

4) yellow (seems ok?)

5) yellow (several possibilities, good, meant to fool, attribution/opinion) 

6) red 

7) yellow (old polish could be a good old polish in which case .....)

 

At least for me this would be a no go, too many reasons to pass, and too few reasons to say yes. 

While some yellow caution flags could turn green, some will not regardless. And while the red flag could turn green, suspect that the reason it turns green is to overcome all the yellow flags. It has been my experience that chasing swords for the wrong reasons never turns out well. "That sword will fit into my collection" is a rationalization. And when examined more carefully and thoroughly, it becomes more of making/forcing the sword fit into the collection. When the right sword comes along you'll know it, all the flags will be green

[SwordGuyJoe]

I nearly completely agree with your flag colors. My only change would be the dealer (#6). For modern made blades there are two reasons that I would say this is yellow or maybe even green.

1. Most important: most dealers are far more well versed on old blades and less so on new ones, so it wouldn't put me off much of no shinsa guarantee came along with the purchase

 

2. If the smith is still alive it's impossible to guarantee shinsa as the sword is not eligible yet anyway.

 

In my opinion, if you're collecting a school, you need to become as close to a subject matter expert as possible and not rely on dealers or old papers - or even new papers for that matter as, again in my opinion, comment 1 applies shinsa panels as well.

[nagamaki - Franco]

Hello Joe, 

 

My reasoning for # 6 is based upon experience which has been to deal with only dealers willing to stand behind what they sell. There is the exception of knowing the deal is as is upfront. In which case always keep in mind the fortune cookie that reads 'don't mistake temptation for opportunity'.

[Geraint]

Hi Joe.

 

For me the question would be, "Do I really like this sword?"  If it matters to you that you have the third generation because you want the complete series then you probably know what the market value for that smith is and you wouldn't expect to catch a bargain from a dealer who knows what they are doing.  Finding a sword in a non specialist dealers might be different.  

Personally I find the whole idea of a dealer guarantee rather strange, I suppose that it is some consolation when you are spending significant amounts of money but even that is a bit of a gamble as the market changes over time in rather unpredictable ways.  If the sword is being sold at the market price for the smith then you might feel that the risk is too great, on the other hand you propose that it is quite a good price in which case what have you got to lose?

 

Have fun.

[Darcy]

The guarantee, it really matters based on what the price is. The Soshu daisho I got at Christie's apparently the previous owner paid $1 million for it. I don't know if that's true or not but it was what I was told by some of the European collectors who were at the auction and talked to me after about it. 

 

If that guy were buying a Yukimitsu and Masamune with no papers and spending $1M I think he should expect a written guarantee... but I don't know anyone nor would I be comfortable myself forking over that kind of money on even a written guarantee.

 

On the other hand you have collectors who want to speculate and buy something and not pay anything for it. And they want a guarantee as well that they can return it. So from the dealer's point of view, if you see this Soshu Masamune on my table and it has no papers and the price is $4k, and you want a guarantee that it's going to pass as Nanbokucho or Kamakura period Soshu with the NBTHK... you're asking to own all the upside but return the risk to me. 

 

It's like buying lottery tickets and asking for a full refund policy in case of disappointment. 

 

So, different prices, different expectations. If you're getting a speculation price, speculate and the risk is taken by the bold, and so does the beating or the reward. 

 

A lot of people are attracted to just the gambling aspect of it, where if you take the papers off of it they'll be interested, put the papers on and they will lose interest. Same sword, just the upside is gone. 

 

The middle ground is 100% dangerous because these are swords that circulate, people with an itch to roll the dice or get something without paying for it will buy it, submit it, fail, then they immediately try to get their money back on it. There is a Rai Kunitoshi with no boshi that circulated for a long time migrating from table to table at various sword shows as people gambled and found out the truth on it. There is an "Ichimonji" that people buy and send in then find another sucker to take off their hands. The common thing is that people look at these items and are convinced they are bargains because of the association with high level makers. But they have inherent problems, the one having no boshi and the other not being Ichimonji. If you want legit Rai or Ichimonji work generally it comes with an equivalent price and if the price is not up there then there is probably a reason for it.

 

Ultimately you need to rely on your own scholarship too as people pass over all kinds of stuff that ends up being perfectly good.

 

All those study groups in Europe and the NBTHK branch and major collectors on hand to review the Soshu Daisho at Christie's and I was the only bidder. Everyone was caught up in the fact that it was not Masamune and was not Yukimitsu. Afterwards when I sent it to the NBTHK Tanobe sensei said the tanto was most likely Sadamune.

 

So here you had all the people with all the knowledge and experience and nobody would stick their neck out with Soshu Sadamune sitting on the table.

 

And I can tell you from my perspective when you are the only guy who did stick your neck out, which sounds maybe a bit like the item you're considering, it makes you nervous because you don't know if you're the smartest guy in the room or the most stupid guy in the room while you're doing it. 

 

Anyway at the end of the day if he's asking a legit price for what it appears to be then he should be prepared to back it up. If it is priced way below what it appears to be, then you know what you're getting into and he's not trying to make a huge profit and disclaim responsibility at the same time.