Koshirae raising the price of the sword by large margin

[Jussi Ekholm]

Of course this subject is totally subjective and case by case basis but I thought it would be fun to discuss this. I'm personally mostly interested in blades but sometimes the sword has a koshirae which also fits to my taste. While on occasions there are cases where I don't like the koshirae at all but the blade is beautiful.

 

I have been eyeing this blade every once in a while, it's way above my budget but looking is free. It has been priced at 1M yen, here it is for sale in shirasaya: http://web.archive.org/web/201311070605 ... 080313.htm

 

Now I was browsing last night the dealers site as I hadn't checked in few weeks. My jaw dropped when I saw that it now has koshirae and the price is now 3,3M yen. http://www.seiyudo.com/ka-080313.htm

 

Even though the tachi koshirae is very luxurious, it does not fit to my koshirae taste as I prefer more plain tachi koshirae. However I'm shocked about the jump up in price with this koshirae. As my Japanese is still very limited I ran this through translation program but that didn't make me much wiser... 尚、写真の通り大変立派な太刀拵が附しています。飾り栄えがする豪華な拵です。I'm wanting to figure out this koshirae and price jump caused by it.

[cabowen]

I have on several occasions asked if I can just buy the blade without the koshirae. Sometimes the dealer says yes, sometimes no....

[kusunokimasahige]

It looks like, just as in the case of Antique books being ripped apart for their etchings, armor sets being ripped apart and other items split that it is done for profit. Wich any dealer can do even though many collectors would want the accompanying koshirae (if it is period original and not a newly made one).

 

I for one would rather have a blade with its (hopefully old and original) koshirae in a good state in stead of just a blade in a shirasaya. But tastes differ of course.

 

KM

[Kronos]

I don't like that Koshirae at all, it looks...manufactured...

 

For me it depends on whether I'm getting a good deal or not. If I'm paying full whack for the blade and Koshirae then I wouldn't be interested usually, but if it's a good price then I'd prefer original period koshirae with anything I purchase. What I'm trying to say is as my main focus is blades it doesn't seem good practice to spend considerably more than the market value for just blade and shirasaya but if there's a deal to be had then why not.

[seattle1]

Hello:

At one million yen the blade seems reasonably priced, and it does have the necessary paper. With a Hozon paper one wonders though if the dealer, or perhaps the previous owner, was trying to cut corners, or whether the blade didn't qualify for TH. I think having the koshirae isn't, in terms of total price, just adding the blade and koshirae up as if they were separate, as the joining itself is value adding. It seems like a pretty nice koshirae to me, though probably not of much if any age. The only dissonance is that the koshirae is for a tachi and the blade is signed katana-mei.

I think the ideal is to have a polished and papered blade with the highest paper it can obtain, in a shirasaya. To have koshirae with it is ideal, however to put a fully polished blade in any koshirae is more or less unthinkable.

It is really sad to see the cannibalization of old koshirae. I think it is only fairly recently that most collectors have come to realize how very rare any koshirae is that goes back before 1600, particularly uchigatana koshirae. It seems perverse, and it is, but the logic no different than an auto junk yard selling the old wrecks in bits and pieces rather than in toto, or the new car parts department for that matter.

Arnold F.

[Jean]

With a Hozon paper one wonders though if the dealer, or perhaps the previous owner, was trying to cut corners, or whether the blade didn't qualify for TH.

 

Arnold,

 

Not necessarily, I have two blades with H papers, because they were O suriage and I wanted to verify for one the Torokusho which says Shizu and came back with a Naoe Shizu kanteisho, the other with two sayagaki to Hosho (Honma Junji and Tanobe sensei) with a Tegai Kanekiyo kanteisho. The question for these blades is not to lnow if they are TH but Juyo Level but It would be buying papers and I don't care

[seattle1]

Hello Jean:

"Not necessarily" indeed. If you parse the words out a little more carefully you will note that the issue of terminal Hozon, when a worthy blade might be advanced further, was only voiced as a possibility. Later I define an ideal as a polished blade in shirasaya which, among other things, has gone as far as it can go. That does not mean that a blade at the Hozon level isn't worth having, as many certainly are quite nice swords. Today the Tokubetsu criterion is expensive for dealers and there is really nothing wrong with them gaming the cost increase (and risk) against the possibility for sale as is. As a general rule - of course there are exceptions - I don't believe that a TH is qualitatively better than the TK, though the market has obviously been rope-a-doped into thinking so. I would bet that many blades which received only Kicho papers after the war, when submitted much later, have received TH papers, and not only because in the immediate post-war years the Tokubetsu Kichi hadn't come into effect. Sometimes the strangest things do happen. I once bought a blade from Japan that was advertised on a site as Hozon, the blade having nice provenance exceeded a Hozon anyway, and much to my surprise when it arrived it had a Tokubetsu Hozon paper. How weird is that?

You raise the issue of changing designations, and it is quite amazing to see how drastic those changes can be, and not necessarily for things that are as close as Shizu and Naoe Shizu. As knowledge accumulates, judges change, better polishes are applied, etc., the changed opioions might lead a newbie to think everything is in flux. I have seen shinshinto become Juyo koto: quite amazing! I am sure that the steady flow of blades year after year into close to back to back shinsa over here in the US is at least a good chunk of "second opinion" seeking.

Arnold F.

[Jean]

Arnold,

 

Interesting taking into account the following unpapered blade has been polished by a Trained togishi who did not say anything about the blade era being what Japanese customs have stated:

 

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=19916

[benatthelake]

Hello:

The only dissonance is that the koshirae is for a tachi and the blade is signed katana-mei.

 

I think the ideal is to have a polished and papered blade with the highest paper it can obtain, in a shirasaya. To have koshirae with it is ideal, however to put a fully polished blade in any koshirae is more or less unthinkable.

 

Arnold F.

 

Arnold: To your points above in order.

 

Seems the "dissonance with the Koshirae is for tachi and blade is signed katana-mei"....this seems like a pretty big issue...a mistake?

 

What do you mean by...."To have koshirae with it is ideal, however to put a fully polished blade in any koshirae is more or less unthinkable." I assume you mean a high quality perfect polish blade should not be stored in the Koshirae based on the fact that most of the time a shirasaya is a better storage solution...protection wise. Correct? I have a decent but not papered (and probably boarderline Hozon) blade in Koshirae as it was sold to me that way. Is this unthinkable? I also have a Tanto in Koshirae (again for the same reason) that is a Hozon candidate (guaranteed by dealer) which I'm considering having a Shirasaya made...just weighing the cost.

 

Clearly the incremental cost of Koshirae here does not justify the increase. I have wondered however...just how much incremental value an original Koshirae or at least Edo period adds. Obviously it depends (pre-1600 versus later edo, style, quality, papers, etc.) but I think everyone will agree with you that it is more than sold separately. To Chris' point, it would be interesting to see how a dealer prices them separately. True blade art lovers and collectors won't care as much for the Koshirae in the way that it doesn't matter whether the Rembrandt painting has a good frame. I can appreciate that but of course...not too many Rembrandts around.

 

For me, my preference is having both. Obviously, both can be artwork quality....but to have them paired for 200+ years as they were intended and used is wonderful, and I believe worthy of a good premium....assuming the pairing are complementary, make sense, etc. Personal preference/passion I suppose....

 

Sorry for my rambling.....

 

Best regards,

Ben M.

[BMarkhasin]

While the blade looks great, I think this is one of the most unattractive koshirae I have ever seen. That baby blue aniline dye is horrific. Hard to say without having it in hand, but it seems modern made. That the koshirae is new shouldn't necessarily be off-putting, provided it is well done. Unfortunately, skill of execution discussions are rendered moot by the insensitive, gaudy, modern color scheme which completely diminishes the piece. It should be understood that what you are likely paying for here is market price for the aggregate time and labour of several modern shokunin (plus a healthy dealer premium). Impossible to compare on a value basis to antique koshirae -- apples and oranges...

 

It will likely go juyo .... Couldn't resist!!

 

Best,

Boris.

[Lance]

I'd guess the concern has more to do with a freshly polished sword and old saya, not koshirae in general.

With original ikoshirae you wouldn't know what kind of dust, dirt, or oill residue might have gotten into the old saya over the years, so using it on a freshly polished blade (almost) guarantees the chance for damaging a new polish. Aside from having a new saya made I do remember seeing a method for cleaning (koshirae) saya with extra long tools that a a sayashi would use to reach all the way inside the scabbard instead of splitting it like a shira-saya, which would damageg the lacquer/rayskin etc.

p.s.

admit toI belonging to the camp that prefers keeping koshirae with the sword as long as it's original and not too far gone: for example even if the sword was Koto and the mounts Edo (or even gunto) this was the last set of koshirae the last "real owner" used, the last part of it's history as a real weapon. Maybe it's overly romantic but even if the sword was already a treasure or an heirloom hundreds of years old, this was the last "uniform" the sword had where it was a weapon first, a badge they may have trusted their own lives to .... even though the blade itself can still be a work of art, the original mounts give that extra connection to a time when it might been called on to fulfill it's real purpose, however terrible that might be today

Regards,

Lance

[seattle1]

Hello Ben M.

I think we are reading from the same page. Yes the dissonance or contradiction between katana-mei for the sword and a tachi koshirae, would sort of bug me. I am sure however that that has been done thousands of times by various owners.

I did say that putting a fully polished blade in any koshirae really is not a good plan, and of course for the reasons Lance raised. The ideal is always a fully polished blade in top condition, with a habaki appropriate to the blades age, in a shirasaya and with an associated koshirae. However I am always mindful of the fact that we are only custodians of these things and that all togi is a reductive process and if I had, as I do, a blade that shows all it has, perhaps with a togi that is at least 100 years old, and has an original to it koshirae, I would be and am perfectly content to leave it as is.

Arnold F.

[Adrian]

admit toI belonging to the camp that prefers keeping koshirae with the sword as long as it's original and not too far gone: for example even if the sword was Koto and the mounts Edo (or even gunto) this was the last set of koshirae the last "real owner" used, the last part of it's history as a real weapon.

 

 

This isn't overly romantic Lance, it's the correct approach from a historical point of view. Of course, one can collect swords strictly as works of metalworking art, (and therefore never minding about koshirae), in which case the history of the blade once it left the workshop is pretty much irrelevant. But from a historical point of view, the koshirae and any other bits (like tassels, surrender tags, blessing notes packed in the handle and so on) can be very important, up to the point where they may help link the sword to a person with historical importance or to certain events.

[Jussi Ekholm]

I'm in the same boat as many of you said, based on pics I think the koshirae is modern made (I just wanted someone with more knowledge to say it first :D). And to my eye it's of very good quality, however it goes against my personal taste. So in this case I would say that koshirae wouldn't be worth of the investment for me. Someone else may think totally opposite. I like some newly made koshirae very much, it all depends on a piece.

 

I think there are two separate things in this discussion as was brought out, modern made koshirae vs. antique koshirae.

 

I'm a romantic too, so I think old koshirae should go with the sword. In my opinion the "basic" koshirae does not pump up the value by that large margin. Sure it raises the price a bit but it's understandable as they are a package. Like many others I think finding a sword in original (by this I mean koshirae made for that sword) koshirae is optimal. Regardless of the age of the koshirae I would not like to part such thing. Unfortunately I don't think I'm yet at the level where I can always identify original vs. fitted one... So therefore at the moment I would also accept koshirae that has been cobbled together if it fits my taste.

 

Of course there are sometimes very fine antique koshirae as well as modern koshirae with the sword that are raising the price by large margin, which is the reason why I made this thread. Needless to say I'm not in the position to get such a sword so that is not an issue for me at the moment. :D Just discussing that is fun.

[kusunokimasahige]

Well, I can only say that we all have seen the high level historical koshirae our fellow member Kunitaro has posted.

 

That for me was quite a treat.

 

KM

[benatthelake]

Aside from having a new saya made I do remember seeing a method for cleaning (koshirae) saya with extra long tools that a a sayashi would use to reach all the way inside the scabbard instead of splitting it like a shira-saya, which would damageg the lacquer/rayskin etc.

p.s.

admit toI belonging to the camp that prefers keeping koshirae with the sword as long as it's original and not too far gone: for example even if the sword was Koto and the mounts Edo (or even gunto) this was the last set of koshirae the last "real owner" used, the last part of it's history as a real weapon. Maybe it's overly romantic but even if the sword was already a treasure or an heirloom hundreds of years old, this was the last "uniform" the sword had where it was a weapon first, a badge they may have trusted their own lives to .... even though the blade itself can still be a work of art, the original mounts give that extra connection to a time when it might been called on to fulfill it's real purpose, however terrible that might be today

Regards,

Lance

 

I would be interested in learning more about "cleaning saya" techniques. My initial thought is obviously running a long pipe cleaner down the throat to at least clean out dirt and stuff. Is anyone aware of a "tool" designed for cleaning purposes. I can't imagine there would be a recommended "cleaning solvent" to use however.

 

I find it interesting that some dealers consistently offer blades with very tasteful to wonderful Koshirae which seem to reflect more of a "real owners" taste. Other dealers seem to offer authentic and period (seems like they are all very late edo), are just plain boring, cobbled together as an afterthought, or worse (as noted in this tread). Nick from Nihontoart.com and Tokugawa Art (sanmei.com) always seem to have some nice packages.

 

Ben M.

[drdata]

No expert. If the saya cannot be split I would consider using a rifle cleaning rod with brush/patches, say .22 caliber and plastic. I would not force it, as it may not fit into the very end and that could split.

 

For solvent I would consider something mild like iso alcohol, 90%. Don't soak things, just a moist patch and based on what comes up go from there. If wood lined the small water content may cause some swelling.

 

I would then let dry for several days, depending on area, before replacing blade. Perhaps wrap blade in plastic wrap on first insertion just in case....

 

But, as always, consult a professional before taking any action on a potentially invaluable antique.

 

Regards

 

PS. Maybe some compressed air, dry (not from a can), to blow out any debris and dust before starting.

[Lance]

I really wish I could remember where I saw this in more detail, I do remember seeing images of some of the tools for cleaning the inside of a saya;

they were basically an assortment of small chisels or files attached to a long rod so they could reach all the way down the inside of the saya. From what I remember the process they were used more like a plane, removing a very small amount of wood from all inside surfaces. On some tools the tip curved backwards so removing wood was done with a pulling motion.

I imagine it would take a lot of skill/training to be sure it was done properly in order to really make it safe for reuse on a freshly polished sword, as well as not damaging the saya itself.

 

Just for reference,

Under tools on the page below are some chisels used for saya, these don't look to be the extended ones I mentioned, most likely those would be something sayashi would have made for them, or make themselves, part of the special "bag of tricks"

 

http://www.ryujinswords.com/saya.htm

 

 

Also found this, (actually a link from a post in another topic from this message board)

from the late Jim Kurrasch

 

http://web.archive.org/web/200411080145 ... ansaya.htm

 

"And for lacquered saya that you do not want to open? Once in a sword shop in Japan I noticed them cleaning the inside of a saya with a triangular wood rasp, welded to a long rod. Check where the problem spot is on the blade. Hold the rod a similar distance, and work the area about where the spot is (ha or mune). The rasp should be fairly fine, and shaped triangular with 1 short side and 2 long sides. Or sometimes one can find a file that actually has a knife shape. If one does this often it would be a fairly good idea to build up a supply of long handled files, and see what works best where. And remember to empty out the saya prior to putting the blade back in it."

 

Regards,

Lance

[cabowen]

No matter how carefully you clean the inside of the saya, without actually opening it and checking, you are rolling the dice if you put a polished blade into an old saya...

[Adrian]

I don't think that blowing air inside a saya would be a good idea, as the air could move dust and even bigger particles to deeper and tighter areas.

 

If lacking proper tools, perhaps placing the saya upside down and attempting to use a vacuum cleaner to suck out air, while gently tapping the saya with the hand could make some of the debris come out.