Adrian Posted February 5, 2013 Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 Hello guys (and girls? ) I've been collecting various (ancient) stuff for most of my life (started with coins as a child, still doing it today, at a different level of course) and I've recently decided to extend into a field that somehow managed to ellude me during the last 24 years (since it became somehow legal here): Nihonto . I did some reading on the subject (just scratched the surface, really) and managed to take a close look at 3 swords, thanks to a local collector. The problem is that in the country where I live Nihonto is virtually non-existant so except for this guy (who honestly admits being a beginnner too, at almost 78 years) there's no one who can help me. As you can imagine, while having a good and well trained eye for detail, I'm far from being able to figure out all the flaws and qualities of a Japanese blade even when looking at it (well, a microscope hepls a bit). When looking at photos I'm almost lost. This being said, I was thinking at starting up by spending some 1500$ on a good wakizashi, maybe something with really attractive mounts, so if the blade is almost worthless at least I'm not completelly fried, so to speak :D . What do you think about this approach? Thanks a lot for your advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex A Posted February 5, 2013 Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 Adrian, i wouldnt spend $1500 with someone who admits there a beginner. Dont rush in, take your time, read a good few books and have a think about exactly what you want. If you buy badly you will never see that money again. If theres no dealers in your country, look elsewhere,take a look through Aoi arts katana for sale just to give you an idea. Expect to pay more though. Alex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Posted February 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 Alex, I think you got it wrong :D . That local guy isn't selling anything, he just allowed me to study his swords a bit. That's why I'm contemplating a mail purchase, since the only alternative would be going in person at a sword show (which would a) eat up the budget and b) potentially put me in touch with less then scrupulous sellers). I might be a complete beginner but I'm not an idiot . (at least that's what I think :D ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex A Posted February 5, 2013 Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 Sorry, my misunderstanding, maybe someones selling something on here, hopefully. Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lingonberry Posted February 5, 2013 Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 As a fellow newbie I can relate to your eagerness to get started. That being said, however, I think I can summarize almost anything that will be said in this thread... The first thing you're going to want to do is buy a bookshelf. Then you're going to want to spend that $1,500 on a library of rare, out of print books about nihonto. After reading your book collection you'll be ready to get started with nihonto. There is a reading list in the FAQ section of this website that lists many great books and splits them into beginner books and advanced books. I believe there is also an article that extols the virtue of planning a collection in advance. Doing so requires lots of research so you'll know what's what, developing your taste, and limiting purchases to things that actually fit into your collection plan (and thus preventing impulse buys). With that out of the way I have a feeling that you're going to do what I and many other newbies probably did; buy a sword anyway.:lol: If you do go that route then I recommend you read and old thread I started entitled "beginner's sword" viewtopic.php?f=9&t=12327 To summarize that thread: "1. Don't consider buying anything until you're confident in your ability to pick out a good quality item by yourself (but you should still seek assistance/advice from more experienced collectors whenever possible) 2. There is no such thing as a "beginners" sword, and if you see one labeled as such it might not be too great a quality (even though the price might be fair for what it is) 3. Buy the best item you can reasonably afford, but make sure you buy from a trusted source and verify your opinions with the opinions of your mentors whenever possible before committing. 4. Stay away from "gems in the rough," i.e. items in need of restoration, as the restored item may not have been worth the cost of purchase + restoration (I don't think I saw this mentioned in this thread, but I feel that it was implied a little bit) 5. Try to avoid buying anything online unless you have seen it in person at least once. Pictures may not be accurate and issues may not be disclosed on the website. Also, you might see something "wrong" (either a flaw or something you don't personally like) once you get the item in person which the dealer didn't see or disclose. Even with inspection periods you'll still lose precious funds on shipping/insurance. 6. Get a really well paying job!" I think a lot of the advice you will receive in this thread will revolve around buying books first. I can speak from experience that some of the advice you're going to get will feel patronizing but please remember that the people here are only trying to help. I think many newbies, myself included, are unpleasantly surprised at how complex nihonto collecting can be and many of us are stuck learning from our mistakes the hard way. Considering that the average nihonto costs as much as a used car I would say that learning the hard way is absolutely to be avoided! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted February 5, 2013 Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 I was thinking at starting up by spending some 1500$ on a good wakizashi, maybe something with really attractive mounts, so if the blade is almost worthless at least I'm not completelly fried, so to speak :D . What do you think about this approach? With this budget you will buy a very decent wakizashi, but no mounts. Post this in Commercial Listings > Wanted to buy and NMB members will certainly have some decent stuff. But... First, decide what you is it that you want - a blade or mounts? You know that these are two separate areas of collecting? I sense that you long for a "real samurai sword", that is one in mountings. Wrong approach, you will end up buying junk, loosing money. Buy books, learn, then buy. People here will be happy to help. Very sound advice from Adam, BTW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Posted February 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 Thank you Adam, that's a lot of common sense there. Mariuszk, I think you misunderstood me a bit. I'm not one of those Kill Bill fans, rushing in to buy a "Katana" and swing it in front of the mirror :lol: . I also know that Nihonto and Tosogu are two different things. What I ment is that I'm MUCH more capable to correctly appraise the mounts then the blade at this point so I'm probably capable to select a wakizashi with mounts that would definitelly have some value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex A Posted February 5, 2013 Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 Well summed up Adam, wish someone had gave me that advice before i bought my first one. Hate to see people making the same mistake i did! Alex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Posted February 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 Alex, would you mind sharing photos of your first purchase and telling me the price? I'm really curious if I would get some "bells ringing" or if I could spot any obvious flaws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex A Posted February 5, 2013 Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 Yes Adrian, i would love to advertise my stupidity :D .. I paid £2420 for a koto blade with no grain and no papers, think it was signed kanekada (if i remember it rightly)..Funnily enough, the fittings where ok. If id have bothered reading a book before jumping in i wouldnt have bothered, so when someone says read a "few" books, they mean well. No pictures im afraid, didnt have it long enough for it to grow on me. Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Posted February 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 Ehh, it is said that stupid is the person who doesn't learn even from his own mistakes Which obviously isn't your case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex A Posted February 5, 2013 Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 I like that take on it Adrian, hopefully you too have learned from my mistake! Alex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Posted February 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 Well, we will find out sooner or later. Of course, at 1500$ there's no chance I can get a decent blade with papers AND good fittings but hopefully I can get a decent signed blade with good fittings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex A Posted February 5, 2013 Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 Ive seen signed blades in koshirae (with hozen papers) for £2400. Adrian you may want to up the budget(if possible),even at this price there not the best but its a good start. £1000 (1500$) is being optimistic.As a newbie i wouldnt buy a sword without papers. Alex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lingonberry Posted February 5, 2013 Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 Just remembered some more stuff... A small collection with one(1) $10,000 sword is infinitely superior to a collection of ten $1,000 swords. There is no hard set value for nihonto. Asking if something is worth "x" amount is tantamount to asking "how long is a piece of string." An item is only worth as much as you're willing to spend. Before you buy something you should ask yourself some questions: 1. Why do I like this? 2. What, exactly is this? (as in, what are the features of the item. What kind of hada, hamon, boshi, suriage or ubu, jidai, etc...) 3. Does the description of the item accurately describe it? 4. Do the features of the item match the work style of the smith or school it is claimed to be/signed by? (the blade confirms the signature, not the other way around) 5. When reading the item's description, can I form a mental image of the item without seeing photographs of it first? Does my mental image roughly match the photographs? (In other words, "do I even understand what the terminology in the description is saying?") 6. Why do I like this? (yes, I put that in there twice) Lastly, I'm going to adapt some advice I received pertaining to my chosen profession of internal auditing (que ominous thunderclap). Don't go to your mentor/mentors with a problem and ask them to solve it for you or tell you what to do. If you encounter a problem you should come up with several ideas of your own and ask your mentor if your thinking was correct. For nihonto collecting this means don't show pictures of a sword to your mentor and ask them "is this good? Is it worth the asking price? Is it really what the seller claims it is?" Instead, answer those questions yourself and then ask your mentor if you were right and if you're not, explain why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Posted February 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 That's an interesting approach. However, there are lots of people who will not approve with this statement: "A small collection with one(1) $10,000 sword is infinitely superior to a collection of ten $1,000 swords." It all depends on why someone is collecting swords. As an investment you are absolutelly right, and high quality/value stuff is ALWAYS easier to sell, usually will a smaller loss (in percentage) then low grade stuff. However, someone who is interested in collecting swords from different periods and regions will be far happier with a collection of 10 low priced swords, if they are low priced because of non-fatal flaws but cover his area of interest well. Particullary if he didn't bought them as an investment. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. As for myself, not being a millionaire and having other expensive hobbies, I definitelly want to start with a sword that isn't going to drop 50% as soon as it leaves the seller's house. But I don't treat it purelly as an investment, for what I know today it may very well be in my house 50 years from now, if I'm pleased with it on the longer run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex A Posted February 5, 2013 Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 Adrian, they dont make good investments. :? Alex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Posted February 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 I know. It's just that top quality ones are better investment then flawed ones. That's why I said "high quality/value stuff is ALWAYS easier to sell, usually will a smaller loss (in percentage) then low grade stuff" (of course, I wrote "will" instead of "with" and everything went south :D ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex A Posted February 5, 2013 Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 What you need to remember is this, if you pay £10000 for a sword and want to sell it in 5 years time you will more than likely struggle to get anywhere near what you want for it simply because its an high value item and you dont have the reputation (or the customers) that the dealer had. If your lucky they will sell it on consignment for you and take a cut. It isnt a safer investment buying a more expensive sword :? These things can be very difficult to sell. Alex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lingonberry Posted February 5, 2013 Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 The point I was attempting to make with that statement was that one should focus on quality rather than quantity. I think there are many people here who would cringe at the thought of viewing nihonto as investments. It's probably a lot easier to sell the cheaper ones than it is to sell the really nice, expensive ones. There is a sword for sale on this forum that is priced at 19,000 Euros and has been available for some time. There is another sword on Fred Weissburg's website going for $125,000 that has been available for a year (as well as many other swords). High priced items do sell but not very quickly so if you need to liquidate in a hurry.... Again, try to focus on quality rather than quantity. I'm not suggesting you accept anything less than a $10,000 sword but rather that you take your time to figure out what you'd like to have in your collection and focus on getting good items that fit your wants and needs. In my limited experience, the swords that fall into the $1,000 tend to be in rather poor condition in that they are out of polish or have flaws. There isn't much point in buying something if you can't clearly see any of the details. If you do then you may find yourself sitting there looking at it and thinking "yup... that's a sword alright." I get the impression that you're absolutely determined to make a purchase, and soon, so waiting until you have a bigger budget isn't really on the table. I figure just about everyone here was the same way when they were just getting started and there is little anyone can do to dissuade you. The only thing I can advise you on this particular matter is that you seek out a good reputable dealer who can help you find something within your budget. What they offer you might not initially suit your fancy but you will likely find that you "grow into" it when you learn more about nihonto and will start to appreciate it more. That's how I got started and I was quite lucky that a gentleman at a sword show in San Antonio, Tx sold me a Tsutsui Kiyokane in naval mounts. It was, and still is, not in too great a polish with chips on the monouchi. I was initially excited that I had a genuine nihonto, even if it wasn't the greatest thing around. A few years went by and I started to lose interest in it because of its condition. However, once I started actually reading the books I had and learning how to really look at and appreciate the details I came to realize that I was very lucky to have such a nice sword. It's no juyo, of course, but it's nothing to scoff at either. As for the $1500 wakizashi; If you're interested in making your first tosogu purchase then you should view the wakizashi blade as an added bonus rather than the main feature. If you're looking for a first nihonto then you might want to look for something in shirasaya so the price more reflects the blade rather than the fittings. There are some pretty good dealer sites in the links section that have items in that price range that you might want to take a look at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Posted February 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 Trust me that I completelly agree with most of the things you said and I'm far from being ready to unload the money at the first shining trinket. As for being determined to purchase something fast, the timeframe is more like within the next 3-4 months, depending what shows up. Sure, I could as well be making the purchase tomorrow, as I have the money ready, but only if everything looks like a reasonable deal. What I said to another member on email was " from my experience on learning, it's far easier to learn when you have at hand the possibility to apply that knowledge. In my case, is easier to figure out what's what when you have at least a sword at home. Photos can take you only that far, I learned that with ancient coins and I don't think Japanese blades are any different." Sure, this doesn't apply if, as you said, I end up buying a completelly tired sword. But I think that after purchasing various antique stuff since high school (now being 40) I have at least some common sense in this matter P.S. Please don't see this as arrogance, I fully admit I could be totally fried when it comes to blades purchased by photos/mail This is why I'm looking for relativelly nice mounts. I tested myself by lookig at the various tsubas offered for sale here and I somehow managed to figure out very well which were the more expensive ones, without looking at prices Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted February 5, 2013 Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 Whatever you buy, Adrian, buy quality. So before buying anything, try to get/learn the sense of quality in Nihonto/Tosogu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Posted February 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 Jean, would you care to give me a private test? In case you also have some photos of crappy swords/fittings, of course. I wouldn't mind getting a reality check, so to speak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex A Posted February 5, 2013 Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 Adrian, i agree, you can only learn so much from books. In the short time i have been on here i have wondered where some of the guys get there knowledge from? (quick google, joking ). The only way i can see me gaining knowlege is an hands on approach. I keep saying il get down to the meetings at the token society but work gets in the way. Is there any arms fairs where you could go and take a look, thats about as hands on as i get. Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted February 5, 2013 Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 I shall do it Adrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Posted February 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 Thanks a lot Jean Adrian, i agree, you can only learn so much from books. In the short time i have been on here i have wondered where some of the guys get there knowledge from? (quick google, joking ). The only way i can see me gaining knowlege is an hands on approach. I keep saying il get down to the meetings at the token society but work gets in the way. Is there any arms fairs where you could go and take a look, thats about as hands on as i get. Alex Well, let me put it this way, you're lucky that you have some meetings that you could attend. For me, that would involve planes and hotels, let alone skipping work :D . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex A Posted February 5, 2013 Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 Deal with reputable and honest dealers/sellers, avoid ebay like the plague and you should do ok. I say avoid ebay, because like me, your no expert and you dont need the hassles. From what ive seen in the way of blades on there, its too risky, even the write ups are vague and misleading. Alex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanjuro Posted February 6, 2013 Report Share Posted February 6, 2013 Adrian. If I may, I would like to introduce a couple of things into your thinking on this subject. I shall do it in plain english, and none of it is meant as a criticism, but rather as an observation. Someone who has had collecting experience in something like coins, is not necessarily well prepared for the variety that is nihonto. Its a bit like a family doctor thinking he would make a great brain surgeon. He may in fact become a great brain surgeon, but not without a great deal of study. Coins are mass produced and authenticity is relatively easy to establish, whereas each nihonto is unique. A genuine coin in good condition is worth a given price. You may get an authentic well preserved nihonto that despite condition is still not a good example. Previous collecting experience in an unrelated field does not help much when it comes to nihonto. Other have hinted at it, but the fact is, nihonto are a lousy investment. If you approach this like an accountant, you will get badly burned. If you buy a low quality sword or a medium quality sword, all each of these will teach you is about low or medium quality swords, and you will not get an appreciation of good quality nihonto from owning either. If you want to study koshirae then buy koshirae. if you want to study blades then buy blades. At the level of your budget you are not likely to get quality examples of both in the one package. Beware, you are in that target group of would be collectors of nihonto that is beloved by the fake peddlers, and not all of them are Chinese by any means. There are fakes out there that are not cheap and would fool many a speculative collector. This is why you need to know what it is you want to buy and to have enough appreciation of the subject to know what is and what isnt desirable. You probably dont want to hear any of this, and without doubt it will come across as negative and not encouraging to you. It is however the truth, and if nothing else I owe you that rather than vague, purile but politically correct encouragement. First accumulate some knowledge and decide what you are trying to achieve, then by all means equipped with that knowledge search for something that advances you toward whatever goal you have set yourself. The last thing you want is to go out and buy something for the sake of ownership then come back here only to find that what you have is poor quality and therefore useless and valueless, or as a worst case scenario - fake. JMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
runagmc Posted February 6, 2013 Report Share Posted February 6, 2013 Keith, I pretty much agree with you, but I think new collectors CAN find something that can bring them enjoyment (and also teach them something), without having to completely go all out financially on their first purchase. That being said, you will probably have to be VERY patient if you want to find a decent sword in decent mounts for $1,500... I suggest picking one or the other, for that kind of budget... because lets face it, you may not need something super high quality at this point, but you don't want to end up with complete junk either... :D I think there's a decent polished wakizashi in the for sale section for like $1000... if it's still there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted February 6, 2013 Report Share Posted February 6, 2013 Mariuszk, I think you misunderstood me a bit. I'm not one of those Kill Bill fans, rushing in to buy a "Katana" and swing it in front of the mirror :lol: . I also know that Nihonto and Tosogu are two different things. What I ment is that I'm MUCH more capable to correctly appraise the mounts then the blade at this point so I'm probably capable to select a wakizashi with mounts that would definitelly have some value. Adrian, nice description of all those morons You won't find a blade with mounts that you are going to enjoy at this price, I am afraid. Adam is spot on here, again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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