mystery mei... plea for assistance.

[Jiro49]

It was missing the h in the link

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Jean, Oei era

 

[Jean]

Which year exactly Jacques? 33 year==> 1426

Is it the first generation Yasumitsu?

how is described the hada : as Nashiji? It cannot because the hada mentionned in the Nihonto Koza is relative to Yasumitsu 2 suguha hamon.

 

The second generation (Nidai) of the Yasumitsu line was known as Sakyonosuke Yasumitsu. His father, the first generation, was known as Uemonnojo Yasumitsu. The earliest works for the second generation seem to be about Oei 28 (1421) and he continued working into the Eikyo - Bunan period (1429-1448). His works closely resembled those of the first generation and it can be said that he worked in Oei Bizen style. The line between the first and second generations is somewhat unclear, but according to the Kumano Manuscripts in Oei 29 the second generation presented a tachi to the Kumano Temple. This was one of the first references to the second generation.

 

 

This sword has a nengo which indicates ckearly a later work in Oei, Early swords by Yasumitsu have no nengo, they are niji mei.

 

Anyway this discussion is irrelevant concerning the topic:

 

When it is suguha those in which ko-mokume hada is tight, with ji-nie, and beautiful are the most common, in particular, in pieces of around Eikyô

 

This sword is not suguha and even the outstanding ko Mokume hada is a kantei point to Oei Bizen when suguha:

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Jean,

 

The sword i show is by the nidai, About hada it is mostly described as ko itame, mokume, etc... (the word nashiji being rarely used, it can be).

 

Early swords by Yasumitsu have no nengo, they are niji mei

 

Without nengo it is hard to say that. According Fujishiro's book the first dated sword by the shodai is dated Oei niju nen.

 

Anyway this discussion is irrelevant concerning the topic:

 

I just say Yasumitsu didn't use only one kind of hada but several. you said :

 

Real one, but not Yasumitsu, wrong nioi guchi, do not see Oei Jigane in the shinogi ji.

and during Oei jidai there were not a single type of hada.

 

BTW the Yasumitsu hada from Choshuya you show is a nice Itame hada with some mokume.

[Jean]

That is what is called Oei hada, unmistakable, you can refer to Kunitaro sama comments about Yasumitsu, the mokume is winning on the itame. You will never find in Yasumitsu the 1st a kind of nashiji hada. I have seen quite a lot of Oei Bizen Yasumitsu, the hada is more or less refined but always as violent as the one seen in Ginza Choshuya tachi, with more or less O hada. Surprisingly, you will notice that in these suguha tachi, the more refined, small pattern the jigane the more outstanding/violent it is.

 

My comments where coming from the fact that Yasumitsu the first has always had an Oei hada and above all in his early years. In early Muromachi Bizen, as the eras pass, the hada is more and more refined. At the end of Oei period, nengo begins to appear, almost systematically on swords in what is called Eikkyo Bizen, this trend will disappear with the Onin Wars.

 

What is very interesting in this sword apart the hada, is the nioiguchi. Always controlled, homogen and generally quite tight in Yasumitsu

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Jean,

Please say me what in the sword discussed here leads you towards shodai Yasumitsu ? This sword is obviously gimei for the shodai and nidai.

 

What is very interesting in this sword apart the hada, is the nioiguchi. Always controlled, homogen and generally quite tight in Yasumitsu

 

 

If you speak about the Choshuya sword, i'm sorry but nioiguchi is not visible.

 

 

I will continue that discussion by PM.

[Jean]

Difficult to see because of hadori, but I can see it. From its twin sister, a picture where it is visible, on the right, under direct light, on the left it is not visible. In hand it is perfectly visible.

 

At 90%, when someone is willing to forge (gimei) a famous smith he will go for the master, in this case the 1st of the line, the Oei Bizen one. Second Generation is considered as Eikkyo Bizen. The coarse hada has a tendancy to link to Oei Bizen, that's almost all, but I bet that you had not even heard before the first topic on this smith that there was a second generation which is at least rated as good as the first and by someone, even better.Even in his book, Nagayama Kokan does not mentioned the second generation

 

The other reason is one that I have already stated in one of my precedent post. Starting end of Oei period, you will almost always have a nengo with the mei "Bishu Osafune", it is not the case with the first generation and this sword has no nengo.

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Starting end of Oei period, you will almost always have a nengo with the mei "Bishu Osafune", it is not the case with the first generation and this sword has no nengo.

 

Yes there is always a nengo with a nagamei, but the sword discussed here has an orikaeshi mei and nengo is gone away by suriage.

[Jean]

In fact, if there was a nengo, it should not have been lost by the suriage but folded over in the nakago as mei and nengo were symetrical. When the mei is cut from the nakago before being folded over, the nengo is just behind it.

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

When the mei is cut from the nakago before being folded over, the nengo is just behind it.

 

No, this part is thinned down before being folded nengo is no more present.

[Eric H]

Yasumitsu genealogy - from Sesko book

 

Eric

[Jean]

Yes there is always a nengo with a nagamei

 

Jacques, I say :

you will almost always have a nengo with the mei "Bishu Osafune"

 

I say "almost" because at the opposite of what is written in the Nihonto Koza Vol 3 p 353 where the author says "always", it is not the case, (cf. kantei riddle in issue 590 of the Nihon Bijutsu magazine where the tachi is signed "Bishu Osafune Yasumitsu" with no nengo.

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Jean

 

Can we see the oshigata of that sword please ?

[Jean]

Hi Jacques,

 

it is in Markus' last book on Koto Kantei, I have just bought it:

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Jean,

 

This sword being suriage is not a proof.

[Jean]

Jacques,

 

Show me an example where the nengo is not symetrical to the mei on the ura side. I have checked quite a lot of Yasumitsu mei, they are all symetrical. There is a suriage one in the Fujishiro p. 371, the date is not erased by thining the nakago in the suriage process. The nakago jiri has been perfectly reshaped meaning that the suriage has been very well performed and no doubt there will be existing remains of the nengo if any.

 

Edit to add, the nagasa of such swords was at most 72 cm, this means that at most the sword is suriage by 2,6 cm,, to short to have the nengo thinned down and disappeared.

[Jacques]

Jean,

 

This sword being suriage there is great chances that nengo was removed by shaping the new nakago. I add that the kantei commentary says absolutely nothing on the nakago, mei etc. So you cannot say there were never a nengo on it. that's only speculation.

 

 

Please read this below (or open your Nakahara page 99) :

 

http://www.nihontomessageboard.com/articles/Suriage.pdf

 

ps i have found funny speaking of funbari on a suriage sword....

 

 

Coming back to the topic, this sword is gimei but not for the reason you give , something in that orikaeshi mei (clearly identifiable) open me a red flag.

[Eric H]

Another example „Bishu Osafune Yasumitsu“ without date

http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/katana/11538.html

 

Eric

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Edit to add, the nagasa of such swords was at most 72 cm, this means that at most the sword is suriage by 2,6 cm,, to short to have the nengo thinned down and disappeared.

 

No Jean, the sword below has 79.5cm nagasa and is largely machi-okuri. When a nakago is reshaped after suriage it is filed on the whole lenght of it (as you can see on the sword linked by Eric). I will add that it is relatively easy to se how long was the shortening. We know that during Oei Era bohi usually ended slightly above habaki. the shortening on the sword you show was at least as long as mei lenght

 

 

 

 

You are just trying having the last word even if you are totally wrong on this subject.

[Jean]

Interesting Jacques. The blade you posted is probably machi okuri by 3cm, but its nakago jiri does not fit Yasumitsu traditional ones (this one is kirijiri and not kurijiri), it must be slightly suriage which by the way implies that the suriage of a blade does not imply automatically a nakago reshaped and that in this case, all depends on the suriage length. The length of the machi okuri is independant of the length of the suriage.

 

When a nakago is reshaped after suriage it is filed on the whole lenght of it (as you can see on the sword linked by Eric)

 

No, as one can see on the sword linked by Eric, it is filed totally on one side (ura), the other one being filed only partially. This may imply that if any nengo,this one will have been filed out, but nobody can say there was one.

 

But must be added that even if difficult, both sides of nakago can be kept untouched when blade is suriage, here is an example given Nobuo Nakahara. You will equally look at Nihonto Koza definition of Oei Nakago and at the point 5) of Nobuo Nakahara's book. For example my Yasumitsu before being machi Okuri has a 12cm Nakago for a 72,2cm nagasa

 

In the kantei given, Only one side of the nakagi is shown showing clearly it has only be partially filed.

 

Unfortunately, the other side is not shown, so we don't know if it has been filed throughout, the only thing sure is that there is no nengo (if entirely filed nobody can say if there was one nengo or not) but if shortened as indicated, you will notice the new kuri jiri nakago jiri.

[Jean]

Coming back to the topic, this sword is gimei but not for the reason you give , something in that orikaeshi mei (clearly identifiable) open me a red flag

 

Sorry Jacques but you who are in charge of the Kantei part on the French Forum, you must know that in Kantei session you have rarely access to the Nakago. The right way to Kantei is that the mei must confirm the work and not the opposite. Kantei points are not about the mei.

 

It is the same as in Kodogu: The methodology is:

 

Order: (1) Study sword workmanship.

(2) Read signature.

(3) Then look at sword again.

[Jacques]

Jean,

you must know that in Kantei session you have rarely access to the Nakago

 

Not in paper kantei see below :

 

Kantei NBTHK December 2012 :

 

Tachi

 

Length: 2 shaku 4 sun 1.5 bu (73.18 cm)

Sori: 8 bu (2.42 cm)

Motohaba: 9 bu 2 rin (2. 79 cm)

Sakihaba: 6 bu 6 rin (2.0 cm)

Motokasane: 2 bu (0.6 cm)

Sakikasane: 1 bu 5 rin (0.45 cm)

Kissaki length: 1 sun 3 bu 5 rin (4. 1 cm)

Nakago length: 6 sun 6 bu (20.0 cm)

Nakago sori: 1 bu (0.3 cm)

 

This is a shinogi zukuri tachi with an ihorimune, a wide mihaba, and the widths at the moto and saki are not much different. It is suriage, there is a high koshizori, the tip has sori and there is an o-kissaki. The jihada is itame mixed with mokume, the entire jihada is tight, there are thick dense ji-nie, frequent chikei, bright midare utsuri and a bright jihada.

The hamon and boshi are as seen in the picture. There are frequent ashi and yo, and the entire hamon is a saka-ashi type. There is a bright nioiguchi, ko-nie, kinsuji and sunagashi. The omote and ura both have horimono which are bo-hi with marudome at the bottom half. On the omote side under the bo-hi there is a bonji and kurikara. On the ura side under the bohi there is a bonji and suken (part of the kurikara and suken extend into the nakago).

The nakago is suriage, and the nakago tip is kurijiri. Some of the yasurime are new and the new and old yasurimei are both kattesagari. There is one mekugi-ana. On the omote side, the nakago has a long kanji signature located at the bottom half of the nakago and close to the mune.

 

 

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Jean

 

This may imply that if any nengo,this one will have been filed out, but nobody can say there was one.

 

So you cannot say :

 

I say "almost" because at the opposite of what is written in the Nihonto Koza Vol 3 p 353 where the author says "always", it is not the case, (cf. kantei riddle in issue 590 of the Nihon Bijutsu magazine where the tachi is signed "Bishu Osafune Yasumitsu" with no nengo.

 

All ubu swords with a nagamei have a Nengo. The author of the Nihonto Koza is right.

 

The right way to Kantei is that the mei must confirm the work and not the opposite

 

True, but only with sword in hands, not based on poor pictures where you see practically nothing.

 

 

 

 

That's all for me. I've learnt much with this discussion, now i know who you really are.

[Jean]

Concerning what I say, I was of course right, there are nagamei with no nengo (the kantei and Eric's example show it) In the Nihonto Koza, FYI, the word "ubu" was not mentionned. You should learn to read Jacques.

 

I was waiting your reaction on the suriage process and I must confess you disappoint me because you voluntarily hid the fact that the nakago is not necessarily filed all the way down as it has clearly been establish by Nakahara sama and by Eric pictures.

 

In the NBTHK kantei example you gave, you have no access to the Nakago mei (remember, it is the mei which lead you to gimei). We were not in a conundrum.

 

The pictures shown by Jason are so clear that only someone not knowing the characteristics of Yasumitsu's nioiguchi can give the excuse of poor pictures (Yasumitsu's nioiguchi is nioi deki and very tight, reason why you could not see it on Ginza Choshuya picture. The pictures provided by Jason show ample nie and a nioiguchi which is all but tight and even). On my sword, the nioi guchi line has been voluntarily slightly emphasized by the polisher.

 

I was sure by posting the kantei and Fujishiro's nakago picture you will react on the nakago jiri and the location of the mei, in my post I did not make any comment on the mei location, my only comment will be now that the kurijiri was reshaped very carefully and that it would have been interesting to see the nakago ura side.

 

All ubu swords with a nagamei have a Nengo. The author of the Nihonto Koza is right

 

I would say that the author must be conforted Jacques by your statement taking into account the number of Yasumitsu naga mei swords you have held I precise "Yasumitsu" because of course, there are thousand of smiths using nagamei without nengo

 

Yes, I am someone who likes from time to time to have a good laugh and lay booby traps.

 

I must confess it was any easy one, you are so encompass in your subject that you don't even see when someone is pulling your leg :D.

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Stop jean,

 

You are becoming ridiculous, and i have never seen such a bad faith.

 

Concerning what I say, I was of course right, there are nagamei with no nengo (the kantei and Eric's example show it) In the Nihonto Koza, FYI, the word "ubu" was not mentionned. You should learn to read Jacques

.

 

There is no need to specify that Author speaks of ubu swords (at least for someone who have a little understanding of nihonto), it is simple common sense. When Author speaks of Suriage sword, it is said (Go Yoshihiro for example)

 

The pictures shown by Jason are so clear that only someone not knowing the characteristics of Yasumitsu's nioiguchi can give the excuse of poor pictures (Yasumitsu's nioiguchi is nioi deki and very tight,

 

Nioiguchi is far to be seen on almost all pictures and it is not visible on the pictures provided by Jason (especially with your belief of what is nioiguchi) , all that you can see is that there is too much nie. More the first picture provided is the nakago only, and it is easy seeing it is very likely gimei.

 

I was sure by posting the kantei and Fujishiro's nakago picture you will react on the nakago jiri and the location of the mei

 

Off topic, this one is dated in Bunan. You cannot refute Swords from Eikyo and take a later one as reference.

 

I would say that the author must be conforted Jacques by your statement taking into account the number of Yasumitsu naga mei swords you have held I precise "Yasumitsu" because of course, there are thousand of smiths using nagamei without nengo

 

Naga mei + Nengo is a characteristic of Oei Bizen (it's even from that fact that swords of this era are called Oei Bizen). You will never find an ubu sword with a nagamei and without nengo.

 

 

I was waiting your reaction on the suriage process and I must confess you disappoint me because you voluntarily hid the fact that the nakago is not necessarily filed all the way down as it has clearly been establish by Nakahara sama and by Eric pictures.

 

 

Buy glasses, man clearly can see that the ura side is totally filed on the sword linked by Eric.

 

Ah, can you tell me how was the nakago before being suriage on the oshigata extracted from Markus's book ?

 

 

Read this below

 

 

 

Discussion closed for me.

[Jean]

Of course Jacques, I was of bad faith (you too BTW), but it was a very good exercise to show what can be discussion when people post by book quotation, instead of by experience.

 

- In the suriage process, it has been clearly establish through Nakahara's book that (except in the worst cases) it is perfectly possible to keep intact both sides of the Nakago (mei and nengo)

 

- That one of the classical way of suriage is the one shown in Aoi-Art picture

 

In conclusion: When talking about suriage, both sides of the Nakago must be shown to see how it was done (cf examples given by Nakahara).

 

- Concerning Kantei: of course, the Nakago is never shown or if shown, the mei if any is hidden (cf Aoi-Art Kanteis).

 

- Concerning Jason's sword, people knowing what is nioi guchi and nie can make up their mind if it is difficult to see if the blade is nioi deki with a compact nioi guchi.

 

- Last point, the nagamei (Bishu Osafune ...) with nengo is typical of early Muromachi Bizen (not only Oei),till Onin wars where it tends to disappear. It is of course also valid for what is called Eikyo Bizen smiths.

 

- One must be carefull about what is called "naga mei".

 

Nagamei: 長銘 Long mei. There seems to be no clear cut definition as to how long it must be before it becomes a "nagamei.".

 

 

The signification of nagamei is not the same in early Muromachi as in Sue Muromachi (cf Bishu Osafune).

 

 

I hope you all enjoyed this discussion :D

[Jean]

Just reviving this old thread to say that Oei Bizen with nagamei don't have automatically nengo.

 

I have just seen a Juyo Bizen Yasumitsu signed Bishu Osafune Yasumitsu without nengo and have had confirmation from Darcy that they are at least 6/7 in the Juyo Zufu which can be found without nengo though nagamei.