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Mark, lacquered leather sounds a lot like wood, I have some jingasa of the same type and some armor pieces as well and I am fairly certain that it is leather or more accurately rawhide "nerigawa" that they are made from.

Unfortunately I do not have many pictures of tameshi gusoku. Here are two more dou. Maybe someone here has more.

One of our esteemed forum members recently made this statement, I just hope he will be careful and wear safety equipment if he tries this at home!!!! Seeing this statement made want to me post some pictures on the subject for anyone who has not seen any samurai armor with bullet dents. Some people may claim that this is proof of battle damage but in reality the armor was tested before being finished. After the maker of the armor proved that his armor was bullet resistant the armor would be finished by lacquering, the dents were left in as proof that the armor was of a superior grade. The zunari kabuto pictured has bullet dents on three panels. This kabuto is very thick and heavy when compared to the average zunari kabuto. The other type of samurai armor you would see bullet testing on would be the dou or chest armor. Here to its not uncommon for every panel the have been tested like the one pictured.

No one but you knows what you mean Carlo. Ians book "Arms and Armor of the Samurai has pictures of kusari katabira, the one on page 155 is one of the finest examples I know of. Ian is one of the few authors to show any pictures of this stye of armor.

And what is it exactly that you contribute?? Please remind me again.

From Stones book:

Your concern for the "community" is admirable . Arn't you lowering your high standards by slumming in Wikipedi? Are you suggesting that people should not contribute or improve to existing Wikipedia articles or contribute images to articles? And in what manner is this jutte a fake? It is a jutte with a hidden spear or point. Is it being described in an inaccurate manner?

Sometime things are right under your nose. From Stones book. Look at #4 #9 and #11 #4:All solid iron,shaped like a mounted sword with a broad belt hook on back. #9:Made and mounted like a sword but it has a curved iron bar. #11:Three jointed iron. The lower joints slide back into the handle end or can be thrown out with a jerk. Length closed 6.5 inches, open 18. (this is exactly like the modern collapsible baton I carry!!!)

Ron I dont see any feathers being ruffled....You have a lot of experience in the field and all opinions are welcome..at least be me. Way before ebay experienced dealers, collectors and museums have been fooled by fakes, its nothing new. I am suspicious myself of anything that can be easily duplicated and shows no sign of age, wear or unusual aging or wear, but I have also seen many of these types of items that at least to me seem genuine. I do not think that just because many people in the west have not seen an object that it has to imply that it is new and was not known before. What reason in the past would a dealer specifically look for and buy a plain iron bar weapon. Not much profit in it, the same reason that many of the lower grade armors were not seen on the market until recently. There was a time when kusari was next to impossible to find, now it is quite common, that does not mean it is being duplicated, it just means that now people have found a market for it. Just my opinion and I of course may be completely WRONG

John, I do not know about the rest of the book but the quote I presented is quite accurate in general. There was a very recent time when supposedly knowledgeable people denied that the Japanese made and used full suits of chain armor. I have found that when it comes to Japanese armor and weapons there are a lot of unknowns. Discussing both sides of an issue sometimes brings up new information. Here is a part of an often quoted article from a forum dedicated to armor etc. http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_jpn_armour.html This is completely wrong and easily proven and yet it is a widely held belief. Kusari was used for all manner of armored clothing completely independent of traditional armor. The internet has brought to light a vast amount of images and information that was not available until recently. The weapons described here may just be in the same category. Overlooked while being right under everyones noses...or maybe not.

Ron and all..If someone can not handle having their beliefs questioned then they shouldnt be on the forum. Anything said here unless there is absolute evidence or research to back it up is just personal opinion. I did not post the picture of the jutte with the blade as an antique example, sorry if I gave that impression, I was just posting it as an example....and as for cast hachiwari fakes, yes there are fake ones but that does not mean all cast hachiwari are fakes, that would be the same as saying that because some jutte are fakes that all jutte are fakes. I do not think anyone said anything about these kinds of truncheons being taken into battle. I think that people who live in an environment where they do not have to carry a weapon ever were they go have a different perspective on the subject and have more trouble understanding how important having some kind of equalizer is. I live in a VERY violent and dangerous part of the world, I own and often wear a bullet resistant vest when going out late at night, I ALWAYS carry a gun any were I go (Yes I have had to use it), even just to take the trash out, and carry a VERY large and heavy cane (club) at all times and always travel with a collapsible steel baton. I easily see how an Edo period samurai, or an average citizen would want the same protection and even into the Meiji period. Armored vests and armored clothing of all types including chain armor were common, cane swords, yari tanto, and various other small hand held weapons would give a person some peace of mind while going about their business. From Stones book: From Don Cunninghams Taiho-Jutsu.

To be clear...I was referring to the two types of so called hachiwari...The dirk type is what I think of as being completely from the club type that has been called a hachiwari also. Don Cunnungham also makes that distinction. I have several of the dirk type blades, with one being mounted in a shirasaya. The dirk type are not very heavy and could in no way be thought of as a club,....but as a stabbing weapon you can easily see its use, the square type of blade is known to leave a very nasty , hard to heal wound. More like a large ice pick then a knife. The club that is shaped like a hachiwari is not much different then any of the iron sword type clubs and can easily be included in the "uchimono" category. Some are straight and some curved but the use and function is the same,.....bashing someone....as opposed to stabbing them. Some of these weapons actually have small blades or spear type points hidden inside so you can bash and stabbed.

Armored opponents did not disappear in the Edo period, the armor just changed. If you look carefully at period prints you will see very many showing armored clothing being worn. You can see it being worn under the kimono at the neck, wrist and legs. Portable lightweight armors of all kinds were manufactured and worn. Yes its true that heavy traditional armor was not needed or necessary for the most part and as such the weapons needed and carried changed also. Head protection was light weight and could be carried and put on when needed. Even in older period prints you will not see armor being worn on a daily basis, it was just to heavy and uncomfortable. This type of armor came in many styles and shapes. Kikko, karuta and kusari armors were worn by high and low status samurai, remember that Japan was still a nation were every adult male samurai was armed while in public right up until the samurai class was dissolved in the 1870s. In "Secrets of the samurai: a survey of the martial arts of feudal Japan By Oscar Ratti, Adele Westbrook http://books.google.com/books?id=ZFf...kigomi&f=false the necessity of the continuation of the use of armor in the 200+yr Edo period as being common and a necessity is throughly discussed>>>> "all manner of civil strife, political intrigues, duels, (both individual and collective), assassinations, which in turn spawned a rich assortment of light armor such as the under garment of fine mail (kusari katabira) and other secret protective clothing worn under the ordinary clothing by the affiliated warrior, the samurai or the ronin. Armored sleeves derived from the traditional kote could be concealed under an overcoat, as could a light tight fitting corselet (do) to protect the back and neck, and an armored collar (nodo-wa) which covered the shoulders. Thus even in times of comparative peace, the use of armor continued to influence the various specializations of bujutsu and, in its new dimension gave a new impetus to the development of methods of close range combat such as kenjutsu and jujutsu, which had evolved from ancient methods of long range combat such as kyukutsu and yarijutsu, werein the full suit of armor or yoroi played such a significant role." I added this link to a previous forum post showing some Japanese armored clothing. viewtopic.php?f=9&t=9679

More for kusunokimasahige actually.

Not really, its fairly obvious that the iron bar weapon that has the same shape as a hachiwari is in fact not actually a hachiwari. It is just another uchimono, an object to hit with, and much closer to being a (pick a name) Tekkan, tetsu-ken, tetsuto. Just having a similar shape does not make it one. I tihink that Don Cunninghan showed that by comparing the two together.

Look at this zunari kabuto, it took bullets to every panel with just a dent, a hachiwari would not do much to it. I think people have taken the name to literally or misinterpreted the name.

Here is the dirk type of hachiwari, could you see anyone breaking a kabuto with this? It is more of a stabbing weapon, used for getting between gaps on armor when fighting hand to hand or grappling.

No one ever broke any kabuto with these types of weapons, bones yes, kabuto no way. With swords being banned during the Meiji period weapons like this would have been popular I would imagine. The difference in terms used does not change the fact that there were a very large variety of these iron bar weapons "uchimomo" to choose from. Im sure there are some unanswered questions about who exactly carried and used which type etc. There was also the Edo period lower level non samurai police to consider, not being officially able to own a jutte these types of weapons could have been used instead. Also during the Meiji period while the samurai class was disbanded the police force was not, and they would have used some kind of weapon. One more interesting passage from Don Cunningham.

It clearly says in Don Cunninghams book "Iron swords similar in shape to the hachiwari carried during the Edo period were also called tetsu-ken or tekkan''. Here is some info from his other book.

From Don cunningham, note the different terms used for the same iron sword described by Serge Mol. Cunningham calls them tekkan or tetsu-ken.

There are two types of hachiwari, a dirk type and the iron bar type, completely different weapons, also there are several different interpretations as to their use and even the meaning of the name, its important to read several sources.

They are all the same thing, iron bar weapons, different names and shapes, same purpose.

I will have to find it...meanwhile check this out....real or one of those made up tourist items? http://s831.photobucket.com/albums/zz23 ... ?start=all

A few excellent books on the subject of "uchimono" and related subjects. #1. Classical weaponry of Japan: special weapons and tactics of the martial arts, Serge Mol, Kodansha International, 2003 Serge Mol's earlier volume, Classical Fighting Arts of Japan: A Complete Guide to Koryu Jujutsu is already destined to become a classic. Classical Weaponry of Japan is a continuation of that first book. It is an in-depth study of more than a hundred exotic special weapons and associated weapon techniques used by various koryu jujutsu schools. Each weapon will be shown in photographs accompanied by detailed explanations about history and usage. The book treats 100 weapons in depth and refers to 300. Where possible, photos will be included of present-day Japanese grandmasters demonstrating the way the weapons were used. In addition to the weapons, the author introduces and explains the characteristics of about twenty special weapon arts that were developed around these weapons. The relation of these special weapon arts to other fighting systems is also discussed. Many of the weapons included in this work once belonged to secret sections within the secret curriculum of ancient jujutsu schools or weapons schools. Certain weapons that remained hidden for centuries have recently been uncovered; Mol includes photos of them and offers ideas about how they may have been used and even shows grandmasters demonstrating their use. Others that became well known around the world, such as the famous shuriken or kusarigama, are discussed in new ways here. However, the majority of the weapons treated in Classical Weaponry of Japan are not widely known, and so will be of great interest to practitioners of martial arts and weapon collectors or enthusiasts. The book is heavily illustrated, with rare photos of weapons, techniques, ancient text scrolls, illustrated scrolls, and woodblock prints. It will have a foreword by Tanaka Fumon and one by another grandmaster who is an expert in the field of secret weapons. Classical Weaponry of Japan will be the first book in any of the major Western languages to comprehensively treat the special or secret weapons that are still known today. You can read the chapter on these types of weapons here> http://books.google.com/books?id=ZzIXkF ... no&f=false #2. Taiho-jutsu: law and order in the age of the samurai, Don Cunningham, Tuttle Publishing, 2004 Secret Weapons of Jujutsu is the first book in English that deals with the full array of small hand weapons used by the Japanese samurai and constabulary. This volume includes a history of the weapons and discussions of hibuki (concealed weapons), improvised weapons, and traditional battlefield weapons such as: kansashi (a long, pointed metal hairpin worn by men and women) kokai and kudzuka (small utility knives) shoku (fire ax) shakuhachi (a bamboo flute -- a particular favorite of monks) yawara (short wooden rod) manriki-gusari (weighted chain) suntetsu (short iron bar) lessen (iron war fan). Cunningham discusses the weapons and demonstrates their use, in a series of clear, easy to follow photographs. Also included are historical photographs, as well as reproductions of paintings and line drawings, of these weapons and their bearers. Book jacket. http://books.google.com/books?id=g5BP7D ... ono&f=true #2. Secret Weapons of Jujutsu, Don Cunningham, Tuttle Publishing, 2002 http://books.google.com/books?id=GMsLAA ... CE4Q6AEwBw #3. Samurai Weapons: Tools of the Warrior, Don Cunningham, Tuttle Publishing, 2008 Weapons, particularly bladed ones such as swords, are enjoying a renaissance of interest from every source, from collectors to laypeople. The samurai, a glorified figure in Japan and the West, employed a variety of weapons, not least of which was the sword. Samurai Weapons details how and why their arsenal included not only the sword of popular lore, but also a variety of other tools, including concealed weapons, improvised fighting tools, fans, truncheons and pole arms. The author succinctly describes the society of Japan, how and why the samurai class arose, and the place that samurai held in that society through the centuries, focusing in particular on the various weaponry, how these weapons were used and why. In addition, Samurai Weapons highlights the influence these weapons and fighting styles had on many different schools of Japanese martial arts. http://books.google.com/books?id=tyLNGA ... CEkQ6AEwBw #4. Classical fighting arts of Japan: a complete guide to koryū jūjutsu, Serge Mol, Kodansha International, 2001 The fierceness of the Japanese warrior and his fighting arts has fascinated Westerners since Europeans first came into contact with Japan more than 450 years ago. Classical Fighting Arts of Japan: A Complete Guide to Koryu Jujutsu is the first comprehensive English-language book on traditional jujutsu. Author Serge Mol-working almost exclusively from original Japanese source materials-vividly outlines the history of the close-quarter fighting methods that warriors developed not only to prove themselves on the battlefield and in daily life, but also to the constantly ready to defend their feudal lords. A great number of jujutsu styles and techniques-armed and unarmed-have existed over the centuries, and many of the classical weapon schools also instructed in the use of jujutsu. The Classical Fighting Arts of Japan expertly guides readers through the rise and development of many of the major schools. The classical martial arts as practiced in the ancient ryuha were deeply interwoven. For this reason, this definitive guide to koryu jujutsu will not only be invaluable to practioners of traditional and modern jujutsu, but will be of great interest to enthusiasts of modern budo such as judo, aikido, kendo, and iaido. Mol explores the historical and cultural factors that helped shape jujutsu and the martial arts in general. He offers a detailed look at individual jujutsu ryuha, giving details on the school's history (where possible including illustrations of their founders and photos of ancient manuscripts). This book is richly illustrated with numerous photographs of rare documents and with many photos of exponents demonstration techniques, many of which have never before been shown outside Japan. In addition to his extensive research in original source material, Mol had regular access in conversation, over the course of years, to the insights of the grandmasters of several of the most important jujutsu schools that remain active today. Classical Fighting Arts of Japan will be a welcome addition to the personal collection of every serious student of Japanese martial arts. http://books.google.com/books?id=K-c2Lw ... CDYQ6AEwAg

Here is the opposite side, maybe the mark is for setting up some kind of jig for drilling holes?