Cuirassier

Hello Stephen, Joe I do not believe it is a misstrike. It looks nothing like any of those in Fuller's and Gregory's book. It is very weird, so say the least.

It is in the right place for an arsenal stamp, but I have never seen one like it. I have been through all my reference books and can not find it anywhere

Thanks;

Thanks Steve Any ideas on the stamp / kokuin? Mark

Hi guys I am struggling on this one. Zanekani Kaneyoshi? It has a kokuin. It a well (not good well) polished blade in early civilian / gunto mounts. Any ideas? Mark

Thanks Koichi. I hate myself. It was staring me in the face all the time and I missed it. It is in Hawleys and John Scott Slough's books. Excuse me. Thanks again, now I must punish myself.

Hi Guys So, I like Guntos, sorry. I have one, clearly Gendaito (so a shinshinto blade) with the smallest and most stylized mei I have ever seen. It is not so much struck, but signed, flowing, and tiny. I believe it is Masahira, but I can find no match to it anywhere. Has anyone ever seen the like before / am I right on my translation / any details on this maker? Regards Mark

:-) Thanks Ron

???? Your purile insults show your stupidity / low IQ and lack of manners (hence I now reciprocate). Repro NCO guntos, their sarute loops normally extend past the pommel cap, duh! I am beginning to hear the yap, yap, yap of little doggies gavering in packs, barking at their own noises. I came here with good intention to point out facts, not simply conjecture and without insulting others. I said "show me one Chinese / Indian seller that has one of these" and not not one has been produced. Since pointing out facts, not inklings, and in order for the pack to be right, all I have received in thanks is baloney and insults. So screw you all; I am gone, out of here. It is very simple, it is easy enough to show I do not know what I am talking about / that I am wrong. Show me ONE Chinese or Indian sub-continent made / sold NCO shin gunto where; 1) The sarute loop correctly rests on the ridge of the pommel cap (does not extend past it) 2) The bohi groove starts close to the habaki (repros start further away) 3) Arsenal markings that conform to those shown in Military Swords of Japan 1868-1945 (note, especially that the blade arsenal marking on repros is often the wrong way up). As the cited eBay NCO gunto conforms to these. So, if it is a repro, you will surely be able to point me / everyone to other examples sold by Indian / Chinese sellers. Until you can, stop the insults, stop the conjecture, and get some lives you amateurs. Sure, I know I am banned, but the fact is the baying pack is wrong. Facts speak louder than BS, and the later is all you have. Screw you. Good riddance. This site may be good for nihonto translation help (and I do appreciate the help I received there), but c**p for everything else. The cited eBay NCO shin gunto is an authentic aluminium hilted Imperial WW2 Japanese item that has varnish or other paint over the hilt, FACT. Anyone that says differently, is a morron; prove me wrong by putting up the URL's to prove your dumb BS. BYE!

True enough, but I like military issued swords Brian

All you have said is your own conjecture in an attempt to prove that you are not wrong. It is your own self-fallacy. What you have said in effect, is that the Chinese reproducers have mastered the aspect of the sarute loop size, the stamping shapes / sizes / types, and where the bohi starts in relation to the habaki, without providing one URL leading to an example of this. And you say the way now to judge fake vs authentic is how straight / smooth the bohi is and some miraculous way steel was somehow stamped without distorting the metal arround it by the Japanese - sorry, but when you strike steel and push it away (as you do with a stamp, it has to go somewhere!). In fact, the original Japanese bohi were cut with human powered cutting tools, and thus are prone to distortion. While the Chinese repros are cut with powered tools and are more likely to be very smooth. You are, with respect, clutching at straws to sustain your own untenable position. I have a lot of experience with these swords. I like issued swords that were used. Not just Japanese; in fact, my favorite swords are French and English Napoleonic swrds. But I do like NCO shin guntos, and also, to a lesser degree, pre-1944 officer guntos. In 15 years I suspect I have handled several repros (which I knew to be repros), perhaps fifty or more authentic NCO guntos, and have owned two early copper hilt examples. Andf whether you like it or not, you are wrong! The cited eBay NCO gunto is authentic, just not an early copper hilted example. Again, it is easy enough to show I do not know what I am talking about, show me ONE Chinese or Indian sub-continent made / sold NCO shin gunto where; 1) The sarute loop correctly rests on the ridge of the pommel cap (does not extend past it) 2) The bohi groove starts close to the habaki (repros start further away) 3) Arsenal markings that conform to those shown in Military Swords of Japan 1868-1945 (note, especially that the blade arsenal marking on repros is often the wrong way up). As the cited eBay NCO gunto conforms to these. So, if it is a repro, you will surely be able to point me / everyone to other examples sold by Indian / Chinese sellers. Until you can, you are trying to teach me how to suck eggs.

1) It is not brass and does not claim to be. It is not the same colour as the cited ebay NCO gunto. 2) It is just the tsuka / handle, not the whole sword. And the fuchi looks like an officer's; nothing like the fuchi on the NCO gunto. It has absolutely no connection proof / argument wise with the NCO gunto. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Take the steel (not iron) fittings and coat them with varnish and you get what? As I pointed out before, the menuki bolt head is clearly of steel which has been varnished / painted over. It is too light to be brass; you can see it is varnished / painted steel. It is an authentic aluminium (with some steel fittings such as the menuki bolt) hilted NCO gunto that has veen varnished / painted over to try and make it look like an earlier copper hilted gunto. As for the paint on the saya; I did not examine it because paint is superficial and proves nothing, so he may have painted the saya (after all, he varnished / painted the tuska). Again, everyone is so keen to be right. Post the URL of any Chinese / Indian sub-continent seller item that conforms to the three tests I set out. Go on, I bet you can't

Someone with some knowledge. But look how to some the serial numbers are wrong, but to others the serial number are right! You say it may be a mix / composite of authentic and repro parts (not very likely....). So, it is either authentic or repro. OK, I am always ready to be corrected. You say these made an appearance on eBay some time ago. Show me one URL that takes me to one of these repros please.

Please, show me ONE Chinese or Indian sub-continent made / sold NCO shin gunto where; 1) The sarute loop correctly rests on the ridge of the pommel cap (does not extend past it) 2) The bohi groove starts close to the habaki (repros start further away) 3) Arsenal markings that conform to those shown in Military Swords of Japan 1868-1945 (note, especially that the blade arsenal marking on repros is often the wrong way up). People here use inklings / feelings and generic statements. Look at the facts. This is an authentic aluminium hilted WW2 Japanse NCO shin gunto that has been varnished / transluscent painted and falsely claimed to be a copper hilted NCO sword. It is NOT a fake. If you say I am wrong, post me the URL of a Chinese / Indian seller NCO Shin gunto that is the same as the cited eBay example / conforms to the above three tests.

Bill I have handled MANY aluminium and copper hilted NCO shin guntos over the years and this is an authentic aluminium hilted NCO shin gunto. You use a generic statement that "the markings are wrong"; but provide no substance or reference; they are not wrong. I recommend that you buy a copy of Military Swords of Japan 1868-1945 (Fuller, Gregory). You refer to the quality of the bohi; these were bad machine made grooves; modern reproductions actually have very smooth and uniform grooves as they have better machines. Mark Austin www.antique-swords.eu PS Your photos of your own gunto do not prove anything about the cited eBay item.

It has not been pulled as you claim. If you cast aspersions Stephen, it is best to have substance. I came onto this thread with good intentions and experience of NCO guntos. I quoted specific areas of reproduction failings, and all you have said is that the stampings look fresh and about the paint also being fresh; the later I have confirmed and which is purely cosmetic and does not change the sword underneath. The gunto is authentic. If I am wrong, do not cast aspersions at me, go onto eBay and find me one Chinese seller with an NCO pattern gunto that has the correct sarute loop size (where it rests on the ridge of the pommel, not extends past it), the correct distance from the bohi to the habaki, and the correctly orientated arsenal markings. I will wager that you can not find one that is the same as the US seller's. So, with all due respect, it is authentic, plain and simple until you come up with substance, not aspersion. PS I believe he has varnished it, based on the discoloration of the menuki screw / retainer. PPS He does claim it is an early copper grip version, which is false, you only have to look at the chape / drag to see that. It is a bulk standard (though 100% authentic) NCO shin gunto, plus the serial number is way too high.

BISHU OSAFUNE JU YOSHIKAGE?

If you can find one Chinese seller with a NCO shin gunto on eBay conforming to these rules, I would genuinely like to see it. For me, specification and detail is everything; paint and damage mean nothing to me (the number of painted / varnished swords I buy at bargain prices and strip the paint / varnish off - actually, these often turn out to be great condition swords, as the paint / varnish protects them - the Victorians particularly used varnish to protect metal objects such as swords, so varnish is a good sign of a sleeper). I have absolutely no doubt that the eBay gunto is authentic, but recently "enhanced", and I do have a lot of experience of handling NCO guntos.

:-) But I thought there were rules about putting such things on guntos. Only mons for certified families? PS Was the actor any good?

OK, thanks; shame though. I wonder if it could have been the officer's name. Is there a web resource for officer names anyone is aware of? I can tell you the gunto came from Burma.

Sorry Paul, but none of these things show the item is a repro; you are refering to cosmetics (paint, damage) not facits of the sword itself.. OK, so someone has painted it at some stage. The sword itself is authentic. I would not pay that price for it, but I would happily buy it as authentic and then use paint stripper / nail varnish remover / acectone (whichever is appropriate) to remove the later embelishment!

Nope. I am not in the USA for one. And the arguments for it being a repro are currently based on the "freshness" of the stampings plus the addition of colour / wax. I agree, the gunto has been coloured, and if it is being sold as an early copper hilted gunto, it is not (look at the for sale listings on this very forum and you will see someone is selling an authentic copper hilted NCO and you will see immediately the saya chape is different). But, again, the tests for a repro are a) the sarute loop size, b) the distance from the bohi to the habaki, c) whether the arsenal stamp on the blade is the correct way up, and d) the stamps on the fuchi. Regarding the example cited on eBay, it passes all four tests; it is authentic, 100%, but someone has coloured it, that is all.

It could also be 康 永 Kôei 1342, as there appears to be a second longer cross bar above the lower smaller cross bar?

Thank you very much Guido. Nakano was the Imperial Japanese Army's Elite Intelligence School.