kaigunair

Not sure what style this tsuba is, but the theme is music instruments. what's interesting is that two of the instruments has come off, at it shows the nanako backing behind these menuki like instruments. Looks like they applied lacquer afterwards. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-EDO-PE ... 337920e1c1 looks like one of the items might be some type of religious mirror, so not sure what the last two items would be...long one a flute or sword, the other?

will try to get some photos up asap! thanks in advance...

found a full copy of the book online. reference on tomokiyo is on p180 not p211. no picture, just a reference to a collection as previously stated. http://books.google.com/books?id=L9IDAA ... en&f=false indicates there were 3 smiths: yamichi ippei hagi (nagato)

that is very interesting and neat to know. I only ask because I once had a gunto that had a "leather" cover over the saya. When I took a closer look, it was actually made of some sort of compressed paper. looked like leather, but when you felt it, it was much thinner and lighter. I'm surprised they would use leather and then lacquer over it....sorta takes away the purpose to conserve precious materials IMO.... looking forward to the pics!

I didn't know about this. I thought all non-rayskin (same) gunto mounts were just painted. Are you sure it was leather and not rice paper or maybe even Konjac paper (they used this stuff on the ww2 balloon attacks)? Any pics of this?

I have what use to be a very nice kaigunto saya/scabbard made of the rayskin same nodules. The lacquered saya nodules are pretty large, and the fittings are better than the typical set. I got all the fittings off (and found out that they used lacquer or some other hard tar like substance under the hangers). The problem with the saya is that the skin had come loose, probably dried alittle, and pulled away. Probably stored in a barn somewhere for a long time.... The skin is currently attached to the top ridge of the saya, but the rest of it is free and bowed out along the length of the saya. They actually used two pieces, and hid the split under one of the hangers. Is there any way to repair this saya using the same skin? I was thinking about plugging up the saya mouth, then letting this sit in a large tupperware over a thin layer of water. if I do this during the summer months, I'm thinking that maybe the humidity will rehydrate same skin, and maybe make it pliable enough to reglue. I'd use rice glue unless there are better suggestions. Any thoughts or opinions? Is there someone who does this type of work?

Well, some info on the references with possible pictures: "Hara, 1931" - I think this is a german language book! There appears to have been a reprint done in 2010, but it also looks like the info may have been incorporated into hayes; a good chance the reference in hayes might only be to a named reference and not an image of a tsuba. If anyone can tell me if 2010 reprint contains a pic of tomokiyo's work and not just a reference to the name, I'd probably go out a buy a copy since its pretty reasonable. the jggilbert webpages states: Die Meister Der Japanischen Schwertzieraten Hara Shinkichi 1931, Museums fur Kunst und Gewerbe un Hamburg OK, it's in German, not English, but it's easy to read. This is a great list of kodogu makers with the Kanji, dates and provinces. It's not much when it comes to pictures, but a very valuable reference for names. This information is now included within the Haynes index. original copy listed on satcho.com: DIE MEISTER DER JAPANISCHEN SCHWERTZIERATEN HARA Shinkichi (1931/32) Two volumes: Hara's listing of fittings artists (1931) and its appendix (1932). This German-language text is prefaced by historical survey and followed by a 14-page listing of schools and their genealogies. The appendix is a separate volume dedicated to photographic plates of tosogu with an emphasis on signatures. Both books were published as a soft cover only -- given the age and format there are few copies remaining. This is a rare opportunity to obtain both volumes of this seminal text. 291/83 Pages in two volumes, 5¾ x 11½" softcover Full text online at:http://www.archive.org/stream/japanischeschwe00jacogoog/japanischeschwe00jacogoog_djvu.txt (This may be a picture of tsuba #211, but only text in the above link:) 211. Tsuba, rund, aus Eisen, durchbrochen, mit Einlagen von verschiedenen Metallen vollrund ausgearbeitet, der Held Benkei (mit den sieben Waflfen), mit Yoshi- tsune auf der Gojo-Brücke kämpfend. — Anfang des 18. Jahrh. 211th Tsuba, round, made of iron, pierced with deposits of various metals fully worked around the hero Benkei (with the seven Waflfen), with Yoshi-Tsune fighting on the Gojo Bridge. - Early 18th Century having a harder time figuring out the kawaguchi publication.

Thanks Ludolf and david. Guess I'm still hopeful that someone has a pic floating out there for the other tomokiyos... I pulled this from a PM sent by david on the two more probably smiths (thanks!) - Tomokiyo, Choshu Hagi ju (H09935.0) Date: 1772. Seems later than the Yaji artist of this name. Has one tsuba dated Meiwa 9 which is 1772. A reference Haynes cites is Hara 1931, p. 211 and the owner a Ms. Langweil of Paris. I am not familiar with that book or the owner. (This might be it as he would only sign: "Tomokiyo, Choshu Hagi ju".) - Tomokiyo, Choshu Hagi ju (H09934.0) Date: 1850. Haynes site as source as the Kawaguchi magazine #14 p. 27 center 6. (I think this might be the artist who made your tsuba as he would just sign "Tomokiyo, Choshu Hagi ju".) Can anyone provide any additional info on the references "hara" and "kawaguchi magazine"? I really appreciate all the help of the members in trying to identify and confirm this obscure smith. Thank you and I am very grateful for the help!

Thanks yogoro. Very similar to the example if the yaji/yazi example I've seen. Still my luck that there are examples Of the earlier tomokiyos out there but not the later one which is probably my smith....

Thanks Guy. Seems like the first one does have more examples (just my luck). Still looking for the 2nd.....

Thanks David for the following info: "Choshu Hagi Ju" on the left it is "Tomokiyo" plus kao. In Haynes Index he has two artist in the Choshu school of Hagi, Nagato Province using the artist name Tomokiyo. The fist one (index ID# H09935.0) is circa 1772 and the second one (index ID# H09934.0) circa 1850 during the late Edo Period. From looking at your tsuba and reading some of Haynes's notes I would think your tsuba is the work of the second Tomokiyo working circa 1850. Anyone have any pics or examples of the 2nd Tomokiyo? Would love a comparison pic! Thanks in advance!

Well, picked up my first tsuba, for the occasion to commemorate my upcoming newborn (well, not counting ones that have come as part of a nihonto's koshirare). Really happy with the design, a water dragon for this 2012 year of the dragon. I bought the tsuba because I liked the design and the price was reasonable, but I am interested in learning more about who exactly made this and any info on the school (I think this is choshu, which is a plus since my family history purports we were once bushi in the yamaguchi area eons past). I believe the signature is Choshu Tomokiyo Kao. I can't seem to find this exact smith listed or another of his work to compare with. I've found a few tomokiyo's and Choshu, but none match exactly. I believe there is a more famous tomokiyo tsuba maker, so perhaps this is a gimie (right term?) signature. The kao is relatively stronger/carved deeper than the rest of the kanji, so I wonder if this is the effect of the spacer placement and normal ware, or if the kao was added later. But, unless this is trying to mimic some really famous tomokiyo, not sure why they would do this. I did find a group called "Goto Tomokiyo" so maybe this is related to a group vs a person? Any info on this particular Tomokiyo would be much appreciated. Also opinions on the tsuba itself too. I don't have a macro lense on my sony nex (yet), so sorry I couldn't post better pics of the tsuba iteself. The scales and claws and waves are pretty detailed, so I'm pretty sure its wasn't just a stamp job (but what do I know?) This is what I've found so far on the 'net and the AFU translation of the Nihon to Kozan, Kodogu, the only book I have on the subject. 1) Yazu/Yaji School, Nagato (choshu) , Tomokiyo 2nd gen 1688-1704, (p121) Genealogies of Japanese Tsuba and Tôsô-Kinkô Artists By Markus Sesko Yaji school, ichibei 168801704 (p.241 afu) Picture: TOMOKIYO SAKU, NAGATO NO KUNI HAGI JU YAJI IPPEI (262 afu) Obsevations: Kanji for Choshu looks similar but signature hard to determine, no Kao 2) Yaji Ke family, shodai Tomokiyo (p.525 afu): Same as above? 3) taira tomokiyo (http://www.choshuya.co.jp/1/0706/36/36_3.jpg) also (https://www.aoi-art.com/auction/auction ... 1213703271): Obsevations: Looks different 4) Kaga Ha, Moritaka, mentions a group "Goto Tomokiyo" (p.293 afu) 5) Sword Article EXAMINING THE ORIGINS OF SŌSHŪ-DEN by Adrian Schlemmer, Tomokiyo 友清 1293 (not tsuba maker)

As someone who holds us Japanese-Americans who fought for the US during ww2, I'd be very interested to know of any similar Japanese-Canadian soldiers who fought in either wwII or prior. From what I know, the Japanese-canadian population had an even worse experience that the Japanese-Americans who were sent into the internment camps.

Thought this was interesting study piece: http://cgi.ebay.com/WWII-Japanese-BATTLE-DAMAGED-SWORD-OCCUPIED-ISLANDS-/130563684337?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e6633b7f1 Unfortunately/intentionally the seller hasn't removed the tsuka, but it looks like a machine made NCO blade. Only the fuchi is changed to match the koiguchi, and the sarute has been added. A funny specimen, yes no?.

well, here's how I can help: it is dated showa 16, ju-ichi nen, or November 1941. If someone doesn't translate first, maybe I'll tackle the flip side which is the smith when I get home later on. 133 is an assembly number, and nothing wrong with it for blades of this period. mark on tsuba is ok too, and I believe the make made better quality fittings than ones that just have plain numbers on them. Close up pics of the blade itself would be a nice study.

that's a neat example!

Tony, thanks for the steam suggestion, which is something I have been considering. KM, good link and read. As Brian pointed out though, I am actually thinking about restoring a same-saya. The pdf did have some good pointers about dealing with the same shrinkage. I do have the book, by Arai; I read about a 1/3 of it, so maybe I haven't gotten to the applicable parts yet regarding saya construction. Here are pics of the saya with the fittings stripped. It looks worse in person (to me at least). The same has pulled back and bubbled up on this side, which is hard to see in the pictures. The worse damage is towards to kojiri area. Any one have any scrap same? :D

If you've tried this method before or know of someone who has first hand experience doing this, then I'd consider this method. If its just speculative, then I can already see a bunch of reasons why not to do it this way....

thanks david. rice glue would make things much easier. if I do try to remove the same, I'll post results. much appreciated!

I recently picked up a kai gunto, double hanger, which is in serious need of repair. The same on the saya has dried and pulled away. Part of it is still attached, but the other half is separated. Getting a black lacquer saya just isn't the same as a ray skin covered one to me. If possible, I'd like to try to restore this one. I was wondering if any one knew what type of glue did they use to attach the ray skin to the saya? Also, is there an easy way to remove it? Will soaking it water or using a steam bath work? it looks like the previous owner of the blade did not keep it in a nice spot, so the ray skin dried out. I've heard that the ray skin expands when wet, so getting it off and soaking it may possibly rejuvenate it? From a previous post, it looks as though fred lohman does not repair ray skin saya any more. If any one can recommend a restorer, it would be much appreciated. 2nd question: what is the proper way to split open a saya to repair?(i.e. for when after I get the ray skin off)

I definitely agree with that there are many pitfalls for the new nihonto collector. Threads like this are very helpful sources of knowledge to new students such as myself. I appreciate them greatly. Now I think perhaps it would have been better to just read.... Having been interested in nihonto since I was a child, the biggest hurdle for me was and is finding a good place to learn. Having been on various other forums for years, and active around here now for a few months, this forum is the one where I tread most lightly, feeling as if I'm walking "on egg shells". Not exactly the friendliest or for the thin-skinned. That may be one of the hurdles for generating true interest in nihonto vs getting info for ebay auctions. I think I do try to make my posts as thoughtful as possible and will strive to continue to do so. IMHO, this is still the best forum for nihonto on the 'net by far. Cheers!

I'd love to be in Japan again! I've heard Hokkaido is the place to be in the summer (edited original post due to a slight flub which I did not intend). But yes, a lacquer coating would do it, like on gusoku. Also, I'd be hesitant to dismiss based on an assumption that cast iron doesn't last. More likely they were recycled for other things, than left to rust away. I'm surprised at what things "last" when they shouldn't, esp paper and fabric items. But again, was just a thought I put out there....

facinating thread, and hope that there will be more conclusive research done to verify the truth of the matter. I read the other thread on the "Dai" shapped tsubas that were cast. Are there other verified cast examples? as a humble theory, might I suggest that there was a more practical reason for cast tsubas, esp in pre-edo times? Similar to dotanuki style blade, mass wars = mass armies = mass need for equipment. While signaling status was import for higher ranked samurai, the need wasn't the same for all "warriors", esp the lowely ashikagas. It was better to equip these ranks with a poorly made tsuba/sword than with a cut bamboo pole in an era of many battles. This has the dual effect of boosting one's own ashikaga moral, as well as being a more intimidating factor on the battlefield.... Since lowely foot soldiers (and those promoted from the non-samurai family ranks, so still front line) may not have had a high survival rate nor were skilled practitioners, the strength of the tsuba is less important. Also, if many of the known/accepted cast tsuba designs are similar, could be indicative of certain particular daimyos or regions who found it beneficial to go this route (like the standardize armor design of the Date clan). Later on, if not "upgraded" by the ashikaga turned samurai, such tsuba could have been melted down to make cannons, teppos, or the bullets.... This would assume that the pre-edo cast tsuba's being discussed were of more simple design. Still, if there are more elegant examples, if the basic shapes are based on the simple/original designs, then it could indicate the period cast tsubas might have been later modified during the edo period to add "flair" and meet market demands for more "art" pieces. My $0.02 regarding practicality of the times vs/ practicality of usage... Would love to see more examples and pictures.

saw that one, but its an ad from back in 2008!

Thanks both for the helpful comments. I appreciate the current matching fittings, and if anything, would consider getting a rewrap of the tsuka if I found a matching/similar themed kozuka menuki and tsuba set. Maybe going towards the court fittings may be more appropriate, perhaps a kiri-mon Tokugawa theme for the three, in the traditional goto style with the fine nanako background? Whose to say that my family did not have such a connection, since I'm basically reconstructing it's history in my collecting...might as well make it interesting :D Now THIS is a nice handachi mount : http://www.nihontoantiques.com/images/Mounts%20151%20copy.jpg On of the menuki's I can't figure out the theme... Guido: point taken, but I know I can't please everyone...