terry8441

Thank you all, I appreciate your input very much. Terry

Jean, It looks Great!

Thank you all for the insight. Does that place this piece somewhere early in the edo period?

Thank you very much Thierry! I appreciate your help. Terry

For your review, thoughts and ideas of attribution. This is my latest acquisition. I purchased it from a fellow NMB member Jorgensen (aka Jimi-san) via his newly created website: http://www.tanto.dk/ The website is beautifully laid out and was very easy to use. Jimi-san was extremely helpful throughout the entire process as well and helped address many of my 'newbie' questions. Any ideas as to its age, condition and the mei/signature are greatly appreciated. Its measurements are: 7.80 cm x 7.20 cm x - 0.40 cm It is thin at the mimi and thickest at the nakago-ana. Thanks in advance for any insight you may be able to provide. Okay, for some reason i'm not able to upload the image of the reverse - but if you like, you can go to the website listed above and find pics that you can zoom in nicely on page two, five rows down center Trees/Water. Sorry for that, Terry

David, Is that the extent of the apology? A general comment rather than a directed one? You had no problem before directing comments at or about me. And it's you not listening to me. I don't like old rusty tsuba - I liked 'that' old rusty tsuba. My first and third are not rusty and deteriorated. I reached out you initially asking about the attributes of my first tsuba and you were very helpful. Then the condescending comments began because you don't agree with my philosophical approach to tsuba collecting in general. Your arrogance and elitist attitude are the problem I have with you. Speaking as a very new member, that's the worst experience for someone who is a newbie to experience on this forum. Luckily for me, I have no problem explaining or defending my position, as ultimately I couldn't care less what you think of me. But please consider for the next potential new, and younger members that may come here - attitudes like yours will discourage their participation and can potentially cause them not to want to learn more about these wonderful pieces. Terry

I too, have studied Kendo and Iaido. It is an art form, a wonderful discipline, and a fine tribute to the philosophy to the sword as an art object. As an art form, a sword that is balanced in the hand is necessary in order to more easily control. As a weapon however, a blade that feels heavier (balanced beyond the hand) carries much more cutting and killing impact and power into the target. (the human, often times somewhat armored human body) Precisely why those who practice Tameshigiri select heftier blades, no bohi, etc. Iaido is equivalent to ballet.(not practical for combat) Tameshigiri is the extreme opposite of simply cutting power.(also not practical for combat) The true balance, both literally and philosophically, lies somewhere in between.

Thank You Stephen.

Antti, Sure, a quick orientation to the distances of protection. Rifle, Pistol, Knife. By the time you get to Knife, it’s extremely personal and you demonstrate your resolve in a manner unlike the other two. To use an edged weapon as your primary, requires qualities few achieve. This is why you find the samurai and other noble swordsmen often very well rounded in the arts, poetry and philosophy. Even my barbarian ancenstors, the Celts, were warrior poets. (Philosophies of the blade – mega condensed version). In one of my posts or messages I referred to the fact that my first tsuba, found me. I didn’t find it, it found me. It was at an estate sale, sitting on the back of a folding table in the garage apartment and it was unmarked. I barely saw it and I swear it said to me “hey, no no don’t go –come here don’t leave me behind, I’m like you, we’re connected” I picked it up and paid the nice lady $10.00 A great portion of my life has been in the service and protection of others. (Not the 5 branches of the military to be clear, but I don’t elaborate further- it’s a personal & professional courtesy ) In that capacity I relate to the function of the tsuba in protecting the swordsman from the blade he wields. I have been all three at times. The Hand that wields, the Blade that harms and the Guard that protects. For last several years, until very recently, I have been the guard that protects. I’m a bit tattered and rough around the edges now as a result, so in that way I related to the piece laying there on the table disconnected from its other elements. The rusty one I just bought too, was a bit of an old guard orphanage buy, plus it really looked like someone had tried to either restore and repair it and did a terrible job and it was an inexpensive opportunity to have it in hand and see what if anything I could learn about how someone might fake a piece or age an old tsuba to make it look even older that it was. The third I’ve purchased and am waiting for now, also found me in a way. There was a post by a NMB member selling several tsuba of another late members estate. In scrolling through the images the elemental scene depicted caught my eye. I thought, “wouldn’t it be nice to sit beneath that tree and listen to the brook bubbling past?” I wouldn’t say I’m collecting tsuba as much as I would say I am relating to them. One of the downsides to my life experiences is, no family. One day, my things will be scattered on tables being sold to strangers. Someone will ask “who’s the man in the picture”? and the answer will be “ I don’t know, but it’s a nice frame” I take home the pieces that speak to me, and in doing so, in my odd strange little way, I do the best I can to honor them and let them know that for now at least, they are not forgotten. I have no idea if that makes sense to anyone other than me. But there it is.

Stephen, I too, thank you for the link you posted. The tsuba I am awaiting is much better quality and very closely connected to #9 Reaching The Source.

Watsonmil, I appreciate your insight as well as your taking the time to give it. If you ever find yourself in Texas, let me buy you a cup of the best rust free coffee we can find! lol Terry

Watsonmil, Thanks for posting the pics of your tsuba! Very nice. It was when I received this one in hand that I thought to ask the question about electrolysis because of the condition, color and extreme dryness of the iron. I wasn't sure if this was due to possibly having been through a fire, was a terrible example of a restoration attempt gone bad, was an outright fake, or just the result of time and neglect. I'm glad to hear your opinion that it isn't cast. It then lines up quite nicely with my philosophical approach to these items (mocked by 1 particular member – with at least a declared Not So Empty Mind) and as such has now found a final resting place. I think part of the ‘concern’ people have is due to the fact that perhaps they are judging the quality, or lack thereof, of this piece based on the standards they hold for their own collections. I’m not drawn to these as simply valuable pieces of art. (clearly, lol) So for a moment everyone, take off the art collector hat and try on the hat of philosophy. I’ll repost my short philosophical take on these items for the sake of repetition and also honestly because it will have the same reaction for some as if I had dragged my fingernails across a chalkboard. This was in a prior post – in a reply to Mr. Hallam regarding a comment he made. Ford H. what a fantastic quote “It also allows us to perhaps become more comfortable with the notion of impermanence, a major theme in Japanese Art but one we, in the West, are often at odds with.” The tsuba, to me, represents so much. Certainly, as individual pieces of art they hold their own. They are a wonderful reflection of the makers’ craftsmanship and personality. They contain a wealth of information that has the potential to reveal the who, what, when & where of their existence. Just an awesome balance of form and function; and therein lies what I am drawn to, the function. The tsuba, protects. The tsuba by itself is to me, incomplete in a way. It’s a bodyguard without a client. A philosophy to which I can relate. Not that I am incomplete- I’m just enjoying a bit of well-deserved rest, lol. But, I do find myself longing for the days gone past from time to time. (the notion of impermanence) As we are all bits of energy and molecules vibrating and resonating in this universe, I wonder if these fine protectors find themselves, in their own way, longing for the sound of the blade returning to the koiguchi. I don’t mind too much seeing one a bit ‘tired’, it’s just time for that well deserved rest. Thank you all for sharing your interests, knowledge, skills and abilities Terry

Mariuszk, It's Cecilia Gimenez’s bastardized “Ecce Homo.” Widely known as “Beast Jesus,” the Spanish octogenatian’s botched restoration of a 19th-century fresco. And you can learn alot, from it. (1)I have spent less than $67.00 on my first 2 tsuba combined ($10 & $57). Everyone please stop worrying about my finances. (2)Sudying how fakes are made, or how old pieces are manipulated to look even older, what 'bad repair' work looks like, shoe polish patina, etc are all helpful things to know when learning what not to look for. What does acid do to metal? What does electrolysis do to metal, what does accelerated decomposition look like? Why do an overly oily or dry tsuba feel like? What does fire, Ice, borax do to steel? (3) Any thread that starts with Rust Removal - that leads to talk of 'My favorite coffee" is Awesome! I want some of that coffee, lol My Sicilian roots would love it! Terry

I promise not to start tapping into the mutual funds to support this endeavor. :D Having this bad example in hand, is very informative though. Imperfection can be just a valuable a teacher as perfection. Looking at the metal and trying to determine "what makes this happen" is an interesting puzzle for me and it's much cheaper than therapy, lol By learning what makes this bad – you are also learning what makes this good. David, I’m reminded of the exchange in a previous thread where, initially you replied with all confidence regarding the quality of a particular tsuba in saying “From what I see in the photos the surface of Tosho style tsuba is not heavy with corrosion. The surface treatment is called (ishime-ji 石目地) and it was a technique used of by many Edo Period tsubako to simulate a ground stone surface. This uneven surface was likely done before it was patinated a process of controlled corrosion to allow ferrous oxides [iron(II) oxide] to form on the surface. I have seen this on many Edo Period Tosho style tsuba. This is just my opinion from looking at the photos but I would need to see the tsuba in hand to confirm. Only to have the expert reply “I'm afraid I have to disagree with regard to the surface of the Tosho style tsuba. To my eye this does in fact look exactly like the result of neglect and rust pitting. The rust has been removed and the piece repatinated but the evidence remains……..And yes, I know I haven't examined the piece in hand but I do know a thing or two about steel, corrosion and texturing the stuff Now I only point this out to actually agree with you in a way. You can observe and learn much more from an item, having it in hand. I started this thread acknowledging the terrible quality of this tsuba. Photos, books, resources, video –all great tools. But I have learned a great deal from this one inexpensive item about quality and the lack thereof. That’s not a waste in my book. But then again, I’ve never had to worry about such things. Now, I have purchased today another tsuba from a trusted member here and when it arrives I will post pics here for your continued constructive criticism. It is intended to be constructive, isn’t it? lol

Right? I'm seriously new to this - but it almost looked like something cast, that was then destroyed even worse (acid, fire, etc) to make look older. Something interesting about it to me and for the very few dollars it cost I thought - lets take a closer look at this and see what I can possibly learn about the subject.

Just to reiterate, I do not want or intened to try to do any rust removal on the one I recently bought. I didn't want to guess at the possible answers but I figured it had to do with possible damage to the patina. I've used the reverse current on things like motorcycle tanks and other items that I wasn't concerned with damaging the remaining metal structure. It's also been used (by professional curators) on a few 8 Reale I have from various recoveries spanish shipwrecks. But in the case of silver, cleaning does not affect the value. (well cleaning tarnish doesn't but I would never remove the discolored corrosion or concreation of an item that was sunken for great periods of time as that adds character and is a very good indication of the time spent at the bottom of the sea) The tsuba I bought is a train wreck, lol & I love it. I bought it to care for it and the best way to do that, in my opinion, is to honor its decay. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. I hope when I am old and fragile, someone does the same for me. But for your viewing pleasure -

I know the answer is DON'T! lol And I don't plan too either. I just purchased an old rusty tsuba, but with this one - it's rustiness was one of the features that actually attracted me to the piece. It was created, it lived, it is decaying and now it's returning into the silence, from which it came. (ran into my first case of tsuba snobbery on this one too, lol , Oh well I'm not an investor or simply an art collector - I'm a philosopher!) But my question is on basic rust removal, so this may be better suited for the metallurgists among us. Why do I never see reverse current/electrolysis as a suggestion? Thanks for the feedback, Terry

Terry Mc here, Sorry, just saw this section today. I joined the NMB just about a week ago. Many years ago while walking through an estate sale, a tsuba found me. I bought it, bought a nice display box and it has rested in my home as well as my office. I've made poor attempts in the past of trying to identify its age and origin and when I found this forum - well it seemed the perfect place to start. I hope to be able to gain enough information to start building a collection that speaks to me. As in all the things I collect, I never factor in an items 'potential return on investment' nor do I acquire items with the intent to 'upgrade'. I select items that I would want to own forever - well at least until the time of my demise at which point I hope to pass them on to others who will genuinely appreciate them. So be nice to me and you may find yourself in my will. Lol! I've always been drawn to swords and edged weapons. Briefly studied Kendo & Iaido here in Dallas. Would describe myself as a bit of a warrior/poet. I've begun learning already, and a couple members have begun helping me as well. Thanks to you all, Terry Mc

Wow, (I’m a newbie, lol) what a great exchange of information. Being new, and as a result impressed with just about everything, this topic and others like it on this forum are already helping me to better understand just what it is that I’m appreciating and being drawn too in the observation of these pieces. Ford H. what a fantastic quote “It also allows us to perhaps become more comfortable with the notion of impermanence, a major theme in Japanese Art but one we, in the West, are often at odds with.” The tsuba, to me, represents so much. Certainly, as individual pieces of art they hold their own. They are a wonderful reflection of the makers’ craftsmanship and personality. They contain a wealth of information that has the potential to reveal the who, what, when & where of their existence. Just an awesome balance of form and function; and therein lies what I am drawn to, the function. The tsuba, protects. The tsuba by itself is to me, incomplete in a way. It’s a bodyguard without a client. A philosophy to which I can relate. Not that I am incomplete- I’m just enjoying a bit of well-deserved rest, lol. But, I do find myself longing for the days gone past from time to time. (the notion of impermanence) As we are all bits of energy and molecules vibrating and resonating in this universe, I wonder if these fine protectors find themselves, in their own way, longing for the sound of the blade returning to the koiguchi. I don’t mind too much seeing one a bit ‘tired’, it’s just time for that well deserved rest. Thank you all for sharing your interests, knowledge, skills and abilities Terry

Thanks very much so far for the help and information - keep it coming. As I am extraordinarily new to the forum all the terminology and references are a bit over my head. But I'm looking forward to learning more and more. Any materials you would refer a newbie to is also appreciated.

Hello all, new guy here. I bought this tsuba at an estate sale a few years ago. I stumbled across this forum last night and I'm hoping that you all may be able to help me identify the what, where, when of its origins. Thanks very much for any insight. Terry