Dr Fox

Oh, what a delight to see! What a rewarding skill to have. Please have a smug thought for the rest of us, who have to fall back on shop displays lol. Would do credit to any exhibition. Cheers Denis.

Chris What I cannot see in my blade, is any similarity to the hamon Toranba, shown to me by members. I, understanding that my knowledge in this field is zero. Said on the 1st November, that =Toranba was: a vivid, undulating, unbroken style. Your post on the 6 November =Toranba is: a rather continuous undulation. So my point was! that we agreed descriptively, on the hamon appearance of Toranba. And to follow your last point: No! I cannot relate to Toranba in my blade. Then it would seem we have a two point agreement. It is of some importance to me, to have a hamon description, it is relevant to the swords identity. So for the present your submission is what I will use, should anyone not agree, then we are off to the races again. I am prepared to accept this style could be unusual, but surely not unique? Regards Denis.

Chris I should have added this quote of mine from a few posts previous! "Have I got a nihonto with a toranba midare hamon? Because I can't see it!" This is where I believed I had a similar conclusion from you. Is this not the case? Regards Denis.

Chris I have re-read you comments on the original post, and here now, I am a little smug that my analysis of Toranba Midare was confirmed by you. I thank you for your patience, I have learnt a lot about a very difficult subject, but my biggest lesson is: Don't push for answers on a subject, that you know little about, because the response, will never make sense! Regards Denis. Teaching a pig to sing, is a no no! it won't work, and it confuses the hell out of the pig.

To all who contributed to this thread and for your PM's. I thank you for your well measured posts, it gave me adequate advice, and allowed me to make an informed decision on the original question. Best regards. Denis.

Nice example John For my own benefit, could you tell me? How much of the nakago was originally blade? I ask, because I am thinking you wanted to indicate a shortened sword. I also doubt myself on that theory, as the hamon seems to me, to run out at the ha-machi! Straighten me out on this one please. Denis.

Thank you Franco. I'll stand by you on this, cheers. Denis.

Franco This sword being mounted in D guard mounts, is not beyond reason, suggest the sword was altered for D guard, and butchered into its present state? Regards Denis.

Hi again George Got your point. Now having seen my post to John, it looks the habaki is sitting in a new position on the blade, just try me on this: The blade was shortened, but looking at the crushed ana's, if they were original for the tsuka, then the blade loss is very little? I appreciate its all guess work and thank you all for it, but despite all this, it looks as if several attempts, have been made to retain this blade. Despite its state, can this blade be considered nihonto? Measurements Mihaba 28.3mm Sakihaba 19.5mm Kasane 6.0mm Denis.

John The suggestion that this blade has been shortened!. With the hamachi removed, underneath the profile of the nakago assumes a blade profile, even though the nakago has taken a beating, the suggestion is there. Un-shortend! wouldn't one expect some width leading up to the ha machi? Its not there. Cheers. Denis.

Thanks John What threw me, was, for this blade to compare with other katana's I own, the blade has to grow another 4.5inches of cutting edge, long sword but no meat. Regards Denis.

Hi John Just clarify a point for me, are you saying that this was a katana, shortened, and then damaged as at its present state? The thought that this was a katana originally, was not something I had considered, because the swords profile is so reduced compared to a katana. Regards Denis.

Hi Geraint Underneath the leather retaining strap is a copper fuchi, which is of a plain design, it fits well on the tsuka. As to fittings it falls between civil/military, and gives credit to neither. I have seen articles on last ditch weaponry, and could agree this could fit here. Yes it all fits together, but I reserve my judgement on 'well'. The nakago is a mess, and spoils what could have been a fair, if not better sword. I saved it from being junked, just out of sympathy for what it could have been. Looking back from the kissaki, there is a nice blade for 16 ins, with the ha and munemachi at that point, I feel this would be a passable wakizashi. Thanks Denis

Guys how best to put this? From my first post on this subject, (What is this hamon) I took away the impression that the term 'Toranba-Midare' was a description of the hamon on my nihonto. Chris Bowen on that forum made his judgement, and to be fair to you Chris, it was an indicator to me, that I know nothing about hamon, and their descriptive styles. But now, Eric provides examples of toranba hamon, Jean steps in with another example, and guess what? from several examples, I can clearly see now, how the term 'toranba applies as a hamon. The toranba seems to be a vivid, undulating and unbroken style, from nakago to kissaki. (Please excuse my uneducated view). I don't want to sidetrack this thread back to 'What is this hamon" But what have I got? Have I got a nihonto with a toranba midare hamon? Because I can't see it! If it can't possibly be Kanetane, and just a stab in the dark, then whether I re-sumit to Shinsa or not, I have a doubtful attribution. The term toranba-midare was termed to me as 'crashing waves" When I first looked at my sword, it looked like billowing clouds, and I am still up in the air. You gentlemen have enough experience, and expertise, to be able to say. I think this!!!!!!! Regards Denis.

David Thanks anyway, for your offer of help. Cheers Denis.

Geraint Could not agree more, With all the considered advice given, there is compelling evidence for me to agree. At point of purchase, re-sale was not on my priority list, in fact I was acting on advice even then. Mr Clive Sinclair, had already warned me, that a purchase of a sword as an investment was unwise, but to study, see many blades, and to then buy what pleases me. This is exactly what I did, and I do enjoy the sword.( isn't that the purpose anyway?) I am richer in mind and pocket, due to the reasoning from the board, I thank all who contributed. Regards Denis.

Eric Great photos, and for me as near in hamon to my blade I have seen so far, Eric would the hamon you show be classed as "Toranba Midare", it has a wave effect. And a repeat of form I have seen on my Kanetane. Denis.

Hi Paul You gave me more insight as to the workings of the NBTH, than I had before. Papers, are all people like me have, to give provenance to what we have. This also applies to Lee and his case, and with the noted discrepancies, would Lee have any sympathy, which would allow him to re-submit and get a better result? or is there not an appeal procedure? Denis.

Hi David And from me welcome. I look forward to viewing you photos, as it means another sighting of a Kanetane hamon, I am trying to ascertain if there is another Kanetane that is similar to the blade I have. If you have not seen it my ref is: Name the Hamon. Dr Fox. 3 May 2012. Regards Denis.

Hi Lee I did read your previous post, and have to say it was right on the line with my own enquiry, the only thing I would say is that I didn't start with any doubts on the paper, believing it came from God. Well you have certainly altered that perception! and given a totally new addition to my considering to do or not to do. I will repeat, you have a fascinating ongoing mystery there. The time zone does indeed have a bearing on communications. To your opening line as to the Q? Not all, including myself use the registered name as their sign off, so I guessed it might be Lee, nothing sinister meant as a hint. Regards Denis.

Got it, thank you Eric. Fascinating, and still unanswered. regards Denis.

Hi Lee? I too find your posting interesting, and would like to follow up on this, but just a small point!. If the original post on the papers was yours, would you be kind enough to point where the post is located. If you are asking, for members to prove your point, and comment, then the reference would be a nice gesture. regards Denis.

See what you are saying Franco, I can't see much change in my case, as the blade is in Japanese polish, purchased from an international dealer who sources his swords inside Japan. No! you gentlemen have given me lots to ponder, and I'm comfortable with the status quo. Thanks all Denis.

See it Josh It indicates this Kanetane the 4th, differed his style from previous Kanetane, what would be a similarity to my blade would be the hamon. I wonder if earlier Kanetane worked in Toranba-Midare. I will see if I can find examples. Denis.

Great Paul I seem to think there were 3 Kanetane in the 1600 in Echizen? And you are right, it is down to me! and at the moment its 3/0 against and I am one of them, cheers pal. Denis. Josh I will PM. Regards Denis.