bluelake

Ron, I've probably answered most of your observations above, but I'll comment once again just for clarity. 1. Koreans copied the practical aspects of the Tanegashima as exact as possible. However, one outstanding feature of most Korean-made matchlocks is their utilitarianism; they lacked the artistry of their Japanese counterparts. Also, as the gunmakers were gov't servants and not private artisans, they did not sign their work; the barrels are unsigned, as are the stocks--the only marks you will find will be like that I mentioned above. 2. Mentioned above. 3. It looked more like the serpentine had been repaired at some point. The matchlock is Japanese in appearance, but Korean in origin. I do agree with its condition (which is how the museum received it).

Piers, Here is a view showing the rear sight. Here are views of the butt. The mark, as mentioned in my first post yesterday, is for the "Hunryeondogam" (訓鍊都監), which oversaw the production of military matchlocks. Thomas

Ron, The reason for its features and appearance is that Koreans copied the Japanese as exact as possible. The first Japanese matchlocks came to Korea a few years before the Imjin (Hideyoshi) War, but Koreans paid little to no attention to them at that time; it wasn't until the invasion that they realized the importance of personal, mobile firearms (they were quite adept at making and using cannon, but the bow was their projectile weapon of choice at the end of the 16th century). At that point, Koreans tried to duplicate captured Tanegashima, but with little success and poor quality. Over the years, they learned more about them (from Japanese prisoners and other sources). It wasn't until the 17th century that Korean proficiency at making matchlocks had improved. However, after that point, as recorded in the Annals of Joseon Kings (AJK), Koreans even exported a large number to China. Yes, during the Imjin War, Koreans used a lot of captured Tanegashima, but, after their manufacturing methods had improved, they made their own. There are many mentions in the AJK regarding their manufacture and use (including one time where a person in charge of their manufacture presented a less-than-perfect example to the king and was exiled for his trouble). At one point, gov't corruption became so bad that the structure in which the matchlocks were produced was changed. Every village was required to maintain an armory and they bought their matchlocks through the gov't channel. The officials at the top skimmed the profits and required villages buy more matchlocks even though their armories were full. The villagers ended up selling older matchlocks to afford the new ones. Their complaints about the practice were finally heard and a system was devised where each region would have its own manufacturing facility, which took the monopoly out of the corrupt officials' hands. This particular matchlock had an external mainspring (missing), which is the style Koreans used for nearly three hundred years. The reason for the gloves is that Korean institutions require it to handle any items in their inventories. You are correct that this one saw many better days. The museum did not have firearms on display and, in fact, have few in storage at all; besides the matchlock, they have a few "handgonne" tubes. All are in storage. It is true what you said about many items that come into museums' hands going into unused inventory; I have seen this many times myself (I'll post some pictures later). Thomas

Well, my wife and I took a trip to a university museum a couple hours' drive from here. They have a long matchlock in their collection and I arranged to inspect it. We had a great time and the staff was really kind and patient. It isn't an extremely large one, but it fits the general Korean criteria for being a "cheonbochong". The third picture down is the mark the Joseon gov't put on military matchlocks, which indicates it came from the "Hunryeondogam" (訓鍊都監). Here are its specs: 138cm/54" Overall Length 103cm/40.55" Barrel Length 13.7mm/.54" Bore Diameter ~5.8mm/.23" Wall Thickness 3.5kg/7.72lb. Weight

Thanks for the info! It's very interesting. 狭間筒 is hyeopgantong in Korean ("narrow space tube"? "Narrow space" does seem to describe a loophole). Tell them to be ready to take cover! Thomas

Piers or Ron, What are the Chinese characters for that type of gun? In Korean, a loophole is called a chongan (銃眼--"gun eye"). Yes, it is true that smoothbore muskets were best used against masses of troops. I believe the cheonbochong was intended that way at long distances, as the two main things the Korean developers did was to reduce its weight for portability and improve its maximum distance capability (that's what was recorded in the 朝鮮王朝實錄); actually, nothing is mentioned there about accuracy--effective range is just out of personal curiosity. Thomas

Thanks, also, Ron--much appreciated I'm familiar with the limitations of a long barrel, being a muzzleloading--and black powder cartridge--shooter myself. In the case of black powder musket shooting, related to what you said, the longer barrel on a smoothbore gives a chance for larger amounts of the powder to burn; whereas, in the case of a relatively short barrel, if one were to put a large amount of powder in it, much of it would be unburned and wasted--the long barrel is helpful in burning a relatively large amount of powder. However, with rifling, long barrels (and excess powder) aren't needed quite as much; take for instance the comparison between the Remington rolling block .50-45 cal. carbine and the .45 cal. Korean matchlock--140 years ago this weekend, Koreans and Americans were pitted against each other and the RRB had no problems with the 150m distance between the American and Korean troops by the main fortress. On the other hand, the Korean matchlocks, according to US records, were more a nuisance than anything else when their spent roundballs hit the hill the Americans were on. I've had several historical land surveys to the area and have collected many relics, which show that to be the case. Personally, I enjoy big black powder guns and am interested in their uses, accuracy and limitations :D Thomas

Thanks for the information, Piers

In 18th century Korea, a long matchlock musket was developed, called a cheonbochong (千步銃), or "thousand pace gun". One recorded example was 165cm long and weighed about 10kg (no listed bore diameter); another was 173cm with a bore of 2.3cm. At the Korean Army Museum (on the campus of the Korea Military Academy) there is a long matchlock that fits the Korean criteria for being a cheonbochong (minimum of 10cm longer than a common 120cm matchlock), as it is about 135cm overall length with a bore of 15mm. I've seen--and even held--that one many times. Next week, I plan to visit a university museum here in Korea that has a cheonbochong, although quite a light one: 138.5cm overall length (barrel length 103.5cm), 15mm bore and 3.5kg weight. What about the long Tanegashima? I have one of Shigeo Sugawa's books and it shows several Tanegashima well over 130cm (although most had a slightly smaller bore than their Korean counterparts). Was there a named class of matchlock for the longer ones, such as the Koreans calling theirs cheonbochong? Did they have a special purpose? Are there any records regarding effective range or maximum range? Thanks for any info. Thomas

All the yumi bows in The Last Samurai were made by a good friend of mine. However, he received no credit at all for them; in the supplementary DVD, the producers take all the credit. Similarly, I supplied the Korean-made bows for the movie, Alexander, but the Korean bowyer received no credit--the movie's armorer even used them in another movie and credited himself. Thomas

I run across them here in Korea from time to time, but now they are becoming prohibitively expensive. Not all that many years ago, they were fairly inexpensive, but not now. Thomas

I should have resized the pics--they are a bit large. I'm going to make at least one more (for the Korean Army Museum), but I'm planning to put another one to use.

I'll still keep my eyes open for an original in the antiques market, but I won't hold my breath. Here is a short pictorial buildalong you might find interesting: http://www.shinmiyangyo.org/ogu/

It's probably a combination of #1 & #3. As mentioned, I'm doing firearms research (as part of my Ph.D. dissertation), and the Tanegashima-style muskets (鳥銃) are an important part of that research, as their introduction to Korea in the late 16th century changed the way Koreans conducted warfare. Although I am still looking for direct evidence that Koreans used monme (돈) to classify 鳥銃, it is quite likely, as that unit was used in differentiating arrows (together with length, which was expressed in 寸)*. Because of that, I am trying to become more familiar with monme in relationship to caliber (which I am used to) and also millimeters (which Koreans currently use in reference to the bore of historical longarms). Since it was a question to me, I figured others might also like a simple way to convert between systems. Thomas * In Korea, arrows are measured using fractions of 돈 (monme) along with whole numbers.

Ron, The reason I did that was because, in my original thread, someone (I forget who) took exception to my not extending the numbers out to two places. I re-did them and figured people could do their own rounding. Attached are the pre-rounded numbers. Thomas

Thanks, Ron. Everytime I visit the antique areas in Korea, I look for such things, but so far I haven't found. Nowadays, there are very few genuine Korean antiques available (at least at a reasonable price); back in the 90s, I was still able to find some great pieces, but those days are pretty much over.

I crafted an ogu, which is a roundball carrier; I based it upon an original at the Korean Army Museum. My creation: Original:

Good idea, Brian! I'll put up a screen capture and if there are any mistakes, I'll re-do it. Thomas

I heard from Brian that the thread was accidentally deleted, so I will re-post it (to the best of my memory). As I am doing firearms research, I thought a chart that showed a conversion between caliber, millimeters and monme (돈 in Korean) would be helpful. The weight calculation of lead roundballs came from an online program, which I am having trouble re-finding. The monme were based upon 3.75g/ea. I could not get the columns to stay in alignment, so I put asterisks between values. Please feel free to correct any mistakes I have made. Caliber Millimeter Grams 돈/Monme 0.32* 8.13* 3.1959* 0.85 0.36* 9.14* 4.5504* 1.21 0.38* 9.65* 5.3518* 1.43 0.4* 10.16* 6.242* 1.66 0.45* 11.43* 8.8876* 2.37 0.5* 12.7* 12.1915* 3.25 0.54* 13.72* 15.3578* 4.1 0.57* 14.48* 18.0622* 4.82 0.6* 15.24* 21.0669* 5.62 0.62* 15.75* 23.2446* 6.2 0.65* 16.51* 26.7847* 7.14 0.7* 17.78* 33.4534* 8.92 0.72* 18.29* 36.4036* 9.71 0.75* 19.05* 41.1463* 10.97 0.8* 20.32* 49.9363* 13.32 0.9* 22.86* 71.1007* 18.96 1* 25.4* 97.5319* 26.01

Thanks, Piers--that's great info! T

Thanks, Piers--that's good information to know. It makes sense to do that after the inevitable wear the pan will have. Thomas

It's hard to tell if there is anything like that on the bottom of the pan. When I tilt it in the light, it looks like there might be something circular directly beneath.

O.K.--4 monme (I was close ).

Piers, From what I can find, the .54 caliber would be about 5 monme (the monme is the same as the Korean "dohn" 돈, which is a weight system still used today in Korea). In metric, my calipers showed the bore to be 13.74mm; just the tip of my pinky could fit in the muzzle. I'll attach a pic of the pan. The vent is still open. Thanks!

Interesting, Piers. Any ballpark idea about how old this barrel might be? It is certainly a very well-made barrel. I can really see the craftsmanship. Thomas