Onin Tsuba use on Tachi...

[Soshin]

Hi Everyone,

 

I was reading through the old (circa 1985) JSSUS article titled Tsuba with Brass Inlay by John Berta. He states that Onin tsuba were originally without additional hitsu-ana for the kogi or kozuka and if they are present then they were added later. It goes on to say that the origin of the Onin tsuba is with Katchushi tsuba makers starting to inlay their tsuba with new imported Chinese brass. With this very expensive inlay even more expensive then gold at the time during the middle Muromachi Period does it not make sense that these early Onin tsuba would be mounted on Tachi used in a formal setting? Another possibly it was used on some time of transitional type of sword that had both uchigatana and tachi characteristics. With the design on my Onin tsuba much like many Tachi tsuba it can be reversed with the cutting edge down. I date my tsuba by comparing characteristics discussed in the article to the height of production of Onin tsuba from between the Onin and Tenmon eras (1468-1554) of the Muromachi Period. The kozuka hitsu-ana was likely added during the early part of the Edo Period as indicated by its shape. The measurements for my tsuba are 7.8✕7.6, 2.5 mm thickness at the rim. More detail about this tsuba can be found on my website.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Ford Hallam]

With this very expensive inlay even more expensive then gold at the time during the middle Muromachi Period does it not make sense that these early Onin tsuba would be mounted on Tachi used in a formal setting?

 

The notion that the Japanese would have imported brass that cost them more than gold seems highly improbable. Gold formed the basis of trade as a fairly universal unit of 'money'. If brass cost more than gold at that time it would have completely messed up the balance of trade with the mainland. It would also have made a significant impact on Japanese coinage. I think this is just another of those tid-bits that someone made up without any basis in fact or without any reference to any evidence.

 

And Onin guards actually appear to be Ko-tosho guards with applied decoration, not Ko-katchushi.

[Soshin]

Hi Ford,

 

I remember reading this bit of misinformation a few places including NMB which left me dump founded a bit. This was in part the reason for the tread. There is well docurment edvience that there was extensive trade between mainland China and the Ashikaga Shogun in Kyoto. As the Onin group was based in Kyoto as well as the Shogun government the time period and place match. The only question that now remains could my Onin tsuba or for that matter any other of the same age be mounted on a tachi or similar style of sword that had the edge worn down?

 

In regaurds to your other major point my Onin like others I have seen in photos look to be modified Ko-Tosho tsuba with Chinese brass inlays. This would indicate a Ko-Tosho and not a Ko-Katchushi origin.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Ford Hallam]

Hi David,

 

We don't actually know where the makers of Onin tsuba were based or even if it was only one closely affiliated group. It all just speculation, as usual. They might have been at Kyoto, but they might have been working for the other side too. We just don't have any real evidence either way.

 

In regaurds to your other major point my Onin like others I have seen in photos look to be modified Ko-Tosho tsuba with Chinese brass inlays. This would indicate a Ko-Tosho and not a Ko-Katchushi origin.

 

that's what I wrote :?

And Onin guards actually appear to be Ko-tosho guards with applied decoration, not Ko-katchushi.

I note Robert Haynes (in "Tsuba - An Aesthetic Study) makes the same claim as Mr Berta . I can only assume this is a printing error as the opposite is so self evidently the case.

 

I was disputing what you wrote here, when you cited John Berta's article;

" It goes on to say that the origin of the Onin tsuba is with Katchushi tsuba makers"

 

You have an Onin type guard that has subsequently had a kozuka hitsu cut in. I don't see any evidence that these guards might have been considered suitable for formal wear...now that we've discounted the 'astronomically expensive' brass story.

[Soshin]

Hi Ford,

 

I note Robert Haynes (in "Tsuba - An Aesthetic Study) makes the same claim as Mr Berta . I can only assume this is a printing error as the opposite is so self evidently the case.

 

I am just agreeing with you. Mr. Haynes did help John Berta with the article. In a more recent book 2010 it is claimed that the reversibility of some design of Ko-Katchushi tsuba example would prement then to be mounted on a tachi or tachi like sword worn with the edge down. This also influenced me in asking my first question as the Ko-sukashi design on my tsuba is reversible like Mr. Haynes' fine Ko-Katchushi example.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[christianmalterre]

David-just an question as i can not follow here...

You do say something about an eventual reversability here...

In which sense do you mean this?

 

Just an next question,as i actually just can speculate about what you did write here-do you get influenced in mentioning an eventual/possible(OR NOT POSSIBLE?) reversability due the fact of an Ana-execution here in your´s Tsuba?

(or let me say it such way...-in the execution of such Ana in general on Tsuba)?

 

(May those ben either Kozuka or Kogai-Ana..is not that relevant actually...this question is out of topic here)

 

Christian

[Soshin]

David-just an question as i can not follow here...

You do say something about an eventual reversability here...

In which sense do you mean this?

 

Hi Christian,

 

Here is what I am referring to please see below. Mr. Haynes also talks about this in regards to a Ko-Tosho and Ko-Katchushi tsuba in his collection in the recent book circa 2010 Study Collection of Japanese Sword Fittings (Gai So Shi) items #8 and #18. I hope my question is now clear.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[christianmalterre]

Hi David and an good morning from here

So i see clearly-i had this in mind-did but want to ask you first,again.

Of course!You are Right!

 

Thank´s (Coffee!)(rather no beer in early morning-no church this early morning here so to "store" mine wife-LOL!)

 

Christian