drbvac Posted January 26, 2012 Report Posted January 26, 2012 I believe this is signed Tadayoshi but I may be wrong and that may be good. There was only a couple of tadayoshi who signed with only 2 character mei and I don't think this signature is correct and probably gimei. That said from the boshi and the shape of the blade I still think it is fairly old - wonder if someone changed the mei half of the nakago couple hundred years ago and added the name? I wish I could take pictures and yes I have read all the links and am still no good. Quote
cabowen Posted January 27, 2012 Report Posted January 27, 2012 Looks more like Shinto to me..... Quote
paulb Posted January 27, 2012 Report Posted January 27, 2012 Hi Brian, I think I agree with Chris it looks to be shinto. It is signed Tadayoshi and you are right that nijimei signatures from this school are rare. I have only seen two and heard of three. they were all by the shodai. If it was his it would date to between 1615 and 1624 but this does not look like his mei. looking at the boshi I would also suggest this is not typical of his work although there were many variations. From what I can see of the hada this also does not look typical. One of the later Tadayoshi's I think from memory the 5th or 6th generation, but will need to check, did sign with the wider box section in the Yoshi character but I dont think he was ever recorded as signing with two characters. Putting all together I think your view that it is gimei would seem likely. It does look to be an interesting piece though and it would be good to hear others views. Best Regards Paul Quote
Jacques Posted January 27, 2012 Report Posted January 27, 2012 Hi, Shodai and Sandai Tadayoshi both signed (rarely) with nijimei. Quote
paulb Posted January 27, 2012 Report Posted January 27, 2012 Hi jacques I am interested in your comment that the Sandai signed niji mei. I have had long discussions with Roger Robertshaw on the subject. He was of the opinion that there were no examples of a nijimei sandai work in existence. can I ask the source you base your comment on? thanks Paul Quote
drbvac Posted January 27, 2012 Author Report Posted January 27, 2012 It indicates it here in tables from Robert Robershaws site in Hizen blades http://www.hizento.net/index.php?page=index SHODAI TADAYOSHI- 1st Gen Tadayoshi Signed: 1600+ TADAYOSHI HIZEN KUNI TADAYOSHI HIZEN KUNI TADAYOSHI SAKU KYUSHU HIZEN KUNI TADAYOSHI HIZEN KUNI JÛ MINAMOTO TADAYOSHI SAKU 1615+ HI TADAYOSHI TADAYOSHI SAKU HISHU JÛ TADAYOSHI HIZEN KUNI JÛ TADAYOSHI HIZEN KUNI JÛNIN TADAYOSHI SAKU TADAYOSHI UMETADA MYOJU (no) DESHI 18 Feb 1624 TADAHIRO MUSASHI DAIJO FUJIWARA TADAHIRO HIZEN KUNI JÛ MUSASHI DAIJO FUJIWARA TADAHIRO Aug 1630+ HIZEN KUNI JÛ FUJIWARA TADAHIRO AND SANDAI TADAYOSHI- 3rd Gen Tadayoshi Signed: 1660 TADAYOSHI 27 Oct 1660 MUTSU DAIJO TADAYOSHI MUTSU DAIJO FUJIWARA TADAYOSHI 16 Aug 1661 MUTSU (no) KAMI FUJIWARA TADAYOSHI --more listed in book-- 1663+ DO KUNI JUNIN MUTSU (no) KAMI TADAYOSHI Circa 1673 HIZEN KUNI TADAYOSHI Born: Died: Name: Father: 1637 in Saga, Hizen 2nd January 1686 (age 50) Hashimoto Shinsaburo [Mutsu (no) Kami Tadayoshi] Omi Daijo Tadahiro (2nd Gen. Tadayoshi) Quote
paulb Posted January 27, 2012 Report Posted January 27, 2012 isnt that interesting. I have a nijimei Tadayoshi which has two sets of papers (see article section) After 10 years of looking on and off I came to the conclusion that it was Shodai finally based on an oshigata in the Juyo Zufu. Before that I was unsure and had numerous conversations with Roger who as remember said there were no recorded examples of the Sandai signing nijmei (maybe we were having the conversations too late in the day and after too many drinks). The view that there were no examples of sandai nijimei was further confirmed in discussion with other Hizen enthusiasts as as well. If Jacques has any additional examples beyond Rogers book I would be very interested (might have to start the research again!) However even if he did sign nijimei one assumes his characters would be similar to his other work. Brians example is not like ether the Shodai or Sandai. Quote
drbvac Posted January 27, 2012 Author Report Posted January 27, 2012 Here are some more pictures the hamachi is almost gone although the munomachi as a little better defined.. The hamon rounds as it approches this machi area then drops right off the bottom of the blade. There are a couple of hit marks mune very close to the munemachi as well [attachment=1]hamachi.jpg[/attachment] [attachment=0]machi.jpg[/attachment] The hamon looks gunome - midare with a small Circular turnback in the boshi and is not quite as wavy nearer the yokote [attachment=2]hmn.jpg[/attachment] Kind of attractive though - lots of activity - Hizen? mid 1700's? Quote
paulb Posted January 27, 2012 Report Posted January 27, 2012 Hi Brian, I think it is a good lookng thing but based on the images would still have serious doubts about it being Hizen, especially a later generation. By the mid 1700's they had pretty well fallen in to a standard form of konuka hada, which I dont think is what I am seeing on this blade. The thick nioi guchi is a common Hizen trait. The yasurimei also look unlike standard Hizen (well at least Tadayoshi) work. The images appear to show a considerable amount of nie running through the nioi guchi is that correct or am I seeing things? Quote
drbvac Posted January 27, 2012 Author Report Posted January 27, 2012 All through the nioi guchi like hundreds of stars - could it be Yamato or Soshu tradition shinto? Quote
Jacques Posted January 28, 2012 Report Posted January 28, 2012 Hi, The only one example i've seen is in the book of Roger Robertshaw. Quote
nagamaki - Franco Posted January 28, 2012 Report Posted January 28, 2012 Hello, must say this mei gives my amateur eyes the impression of being added, not an uncommon occurrence with nihonto. Quote
drbvac Posted January 28, 2012 Author Report Posted January 28, 2012 Agreed Franco - that was stated in my first post and the nakago looking "lighter in color" and with yasurime that look odd, make me sure it was changed/signed much later than it was forged - thats why I initially thought koto but defer to the experts. Still pretty nice blade with lots going on so I will hang on to it and see what else I can determine. Going to try and scan the blade see if pics are any better Quote
nagamaki - Franco Posted January 28, 2012 Report Posted January 28, 2012 Hi, sorry to have entered the conversation late. Does the steel appear to be soft or have hard spots? Enjoy! Quote
drbvac Posted January 28, 2012 Author Report Posted January 28, 2012 No problem sir - better late than never and another set of eyes always helps - I really think this is older than shinto but the nakago and false signature were done in the 1700's? The steel actually appears "soft' but it is hard to photo: I tried another technique and these may be better photos but it is hard to see the activity in the hamon Quote
cabowen Posted January 28, 2012 Report Posted January 28, 2012 It is hard to tell from the photos but does it have mostly masame in the shinogi-ji? Quote
nagamaki - Franco Posted January 28, 2012 Report Posted January 28, 2012 hamachi is almost gone Suspect from the ha being raised due to chip(s), vote Shinto, too. Quote
drbvac Posted January 28, 2012 Author Report Posted January 28, 2012 Chris: Actually thats correct - masame all along the shinogi-ji and it is mostly very small itame all along the hira-ji B Quote
cabowen Posted January 28, 2012 Report Posted January 28, 2012 Chris: Actually thats correct - masame all along the shinogi-ji and it is mostly very small itame all along the hira-ji B That is seen a lot in Shinto works and why I said Shinto above..... Quote
drbvac Posted January 28, 2012 Author Report Posted January 28, 2012 Shinto it is = late shinto - how does Osaka school sound ? Quote
cabowen Posted January 28, 2012 Report Posted January 28, 2012 Osaka shinto usually have a yakidashi..... Quote
drbvac Posted January 29, 2012 Author Report Posted January 29, 2012 Is there any chance considering the polish removed the hamachi - the notch is gone would remove the yakidashi as well.? the hamon swings back down to the edge and disappears ahead of the machi which is also a little odd is it not If not Osaka - Edo or echizen Quote
cabowen Posted January 29, 2012 Report Posted January 29, 2012 Is there any chance considering the polish removed the hamachi - the notch is gone would remove the yakidashi as well.? I don't think so..........See below: A. Yaki otoshi B. Osaka yakidashi C. Koshimaru D. Kyo yakidashi Quote
drbvac Posted January 29, 2012 Author Report Posted January 29, 2012 Thanks so much for your interest Chris - so even with the polish reduction, the shape and apparent path of the hamon would make it more like Yaki otoshi. Satsuma or shinto Echizen ? It also has a kaeri in the boshi that goes bak form the tip about an inch on the mune. May eventually narrow it down Quote
cabowen Posted January 29, 2012 Report Posted January 29, 2012 I don't think it is Satsuma....generally they have long sunagashi called imozuru and I don't see them here... I can't really see the hamon well enough to make any comfortable guesses but first I would look for mizukage....Sometimes yakiotoshi is a sign of saiha..... Quote
drbvac Posted January 29, 2012 Author Report Posted January 29, 2012 I dont believe it was re-tempered - it looks OK near the nakago and mune 0 no whitish color there 0 The only picture I have of the hamon till I figure out a better technique is one of these - it is full of little black specs and nie. Quote
runagmc Posted January 30, 2012 Report Posted January 30, 2012 the hamon swings back down to the edge and disappears ahead of the machi which is also a little odd is it not Not yaki-otoshi... and what do you think about Shinto Bungo .JPG] Quote
cabowen Posted January 30, 2012 Report Posted January 30, 2012 I thought about Bungo at first but this blade has way more nie than the usual Bungo blade.... Quote
drbvac Posted January 30, 2012 Author Report Posted January 30, 2012 Adam: have no idea what the hell I was looking at until I did put the habaki back on and looked at the hamon disappear underneath it after where the hamachi should have been Chris thanks again - heres a pic of the hamon and the black specs are clearer - are they the nie sake ? Is any school known to have this type more than others? Quote
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.