question about suriage tanto

[runagmc]

I wondered if somebody cut down this tanto because of the hamon. Yaki-otoshi doesn't seem possible since it's a tanto, and from the Muromachi period. Has anyone seen yaki-otoshi in tanto?

 

Since it's a smith from the Muramasa mon, mabey the spot where the hamon goes off the blade was one of the low valleys this school is known for, and the person who decided to cut it down saw it as a flaw. To me it looks like the hamon was intentionally started at the point where the new machi was eventually made, rather than running into the nakago like it should, being suriage.

 

The only other possible explanation I can think of is saiha, but that doesn't look likely to me. Any thoughts? Am I missing something?

http://www.samuraishokai.jp/sword/10602.html

[Lance]

I think that when (Muramasa) school smiths used suguha, there would usually be one or a few large waves near the hamachi (koshiba?) Most likely when it was shortened/reshaped a couple of the waves were lost and the width of the blade was reduced near the tang. I attached link and a picture to a site I had saved to illustrate my idea, second listing from the top. If you compare the two and imagine the hamon's first couple waves started somewhere in the area of the hole nearest the hamachi, it could show what it might have looked like originally.

 

 

http://connoisseurarms.com/index.php?op ... &Itemid=10

 

Regards,

Lance

[Toryu2020]

Sorry didn't catch the name Runga?

If they cut new machi and lost as much temper as suggested then you would see definite nie in the nakago where the old temper line was.

 

If it is saiha the color/texture of the nakago would show it, most likely you would see mizukage of some sort and the jigane would also appear grainy and dry.

 

To me it looks like it was remounted several times but looks pretty like it was supposed to. As noted the Sengo guys did squarish "koshiba" on many of their works. I wonder do you have it in hand? What exactly are you seeing?

 

-t

[cabowen]

Sorry didn't catch the name Runga?

If they cut new machi and lost as much temper as suggested then you would see definite nie in the nakago where the old temper line was.

 

-t

 

Many times, if not most of the time, when a blade is shortened, they will heat the blade at the edge where they want to shorten it to remove the hamon so it is softer and easier to cut. The hamon is very hard and can be very difficult to cut. They often used a daikon in the old days above the area heated as a heat sink to keep the area above that which they wish to soften from getting hot and effecting the hamon. When they do this, there will no longer be nie, etc., visible in the nakago.....

[edzo]

Dear Chris,

 

Please forgive my ignorance if u can. Could it be that the blade has been polished so much, based upon the depth of the hamachi, that the blade was re-tempered and deliberately retained Muramasa hamon characteristics for attribution? Sorry if this comment is out there.

[runagmc]

Chris makes a good point. Mabey that has something to do with it. It also could be just from a low spot in the hamon like I first assumed and like Lance suggested, or a mix of the two. But these things still leave me to wonder why it would've been shortened to begin with. That's why I suggested that mabey a low valley reaching the ha in that spot was the reason someone shortened it to that point. Mabey the owner saw it as a flaw and decided to cut it down to remove it. I guess it's impossible to say for sure.

 

BTW nice pic to represent the idea Lance, Thanks to all

[runagmc]

And no Thomas, I don't own it. Just a sale I ran across online. Thanks again

[runagmc]

Lance, an interesting note: the ubu tanto you posted has a nagasa around 26 cm, while the suriage one I posted is around 28 cm. Not that it neccesarily means anything, but the one I posted must have been a fair amount bigger, to still be bigger even after suriage.

 

Edit: It looks like the suriage one lost about 4 cm, which would mean it was originally long for a tanto. Mabey it was cut down to fit some used mounts that where too small.

[Toryu2020]

Adam, sorry when replying it cut your name off.

 

Chris - granted but if saiha there should be other evidence as I suggested. and since none of us has it in hand it may be an unanswered question. From the photos, (here we go) to my eye, it looks like it is supposed to look, fits the attribution and is not saiha.

 

my humble opinion only...

-t

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

This blade has got an hozon paper so it can't be saiha.

[runagmc]

Thomas and Jacques, I believe Chris is saying that many times when a blade is shortened, they anneal a small portion of the hamon, so when the nakago is reshaped by filing, it's easier to file down. He points out that sometimes the edge of the blade was cut into a diakon radish to keep the part of the hamon that they didn't want to anneal unaffected. Something like this, Hopefully this beautiful artwork :D will help explain. I think we're all in agreement that there is no retemper here.

[runagmc]

Then the blade is shortened like so,

[cabowen]

You got it Adam....I am not saying the blade is saiha, just that if it has been shortened, you can not expect to see hamon or nie in the new nakago.....

[Lance]

Maybe it was cut down to fit some used mounts that where too small.

 

I've seen a lot of tanto that seem have extra holes added in odd places, and look to have been done during the blade's history in Japan. I took a quick picture of a tanto I have with the second hole below the original, papered to Heianjo Yoshifusa for another example. I've always wondered why they didn't just make new mounts using the same fittings, must have been expensive back then too?

Regards,

Lance

[runagmc]

Yeah Lance, in examples like this it probably came down to them using whatever they could get their hands on, or whatever was easiest. We would obviously never shorten a sword or carelessly drill holes in nakago to fit a set of mounts now, but back in those days most swords were viewed in a utilitarian way. The large number of o-suriage katana we have that were cut down from tachi to better fit the style of the times shows that they weren't so concerned about preserving the originality of their swords like we are.

 

It seems kind of ironic that bushi were said to have viewed their swords as being holy in a way, but still they would punch mekugi ana through the mei and make other somewhat careless alterations.

 

So in summary... swords were seen as holy, but utilitarian:? I guess it's fair to say that the place of Nihonto in Japanese history is nothing if not complex...

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

My sentence about NBTHK hozon is related to that sentence : The only other possible explanation I can think of is saiha, but that doesn't look likely to me. Any thoughts? Am I missing something?, nothing else (i know the suriage process).

Maybe the tanto is a broken wakizashi.

[runagmc]

Ok Jacques, I don't doubt that you know the process. It just seemed like there was some confusion about what we were talking about.

 

I just mentioned yaki otoshi and saiha to cover all the bases. As you saw, I also wrote that those things didn't seem to be the case here.

 

To be clear about one more thing, even though I know you already know this, some others may not, so... the rule about saiha and hozon papers, as far as I know says: If a blade is zaimei by a famous smith, and Nambokucho or earlier in age, saiha can be allowed for a blade that's important for reference, and if the condition of the nakago and jiha is well preserved. In this case the blade's state of saiha must be mentioned in the paper.

 

And yes, I'm aware that your statement is still relevant for this blade, since it's Muromachi, not by an extremely important smith, and it is suriage. I just stated the rule for clarity for other readers.

 

As far as it being a broken wakizashi, that doesn't seem possible since the original mekugiana and mei suggest the original length was around 32cm. Or at least that's how it looks to me. Thanks again for your input

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

 

You are right, i didn't pay attention that the mei is still there, i just focused on the hozon, so i don't see the purpose of such a suriage.

[runagmc]

Yes, that was my reason for asking about this blade. The suriage doesn't have a normal purpose...

 

The only reasons I can come up with are, if it was shortened to fit a set of mounts, or if the valley in the hamon reached the ha (which could be seen as fatal flaw), and somebody shortened the blade to move the ha machi to the point of the low spot in the hamon. Both of these seem like possible explanations, but not good explanations. I just wanted to see if anyone else had any other ideas. Thanks for all the replies everyone...