Traditional Japanese Polish

[drbvac]

NO NO NO This is not about professional Japanese trained VS self trained or amateurs~~ Never goin there again !!

 

A question rather regarding the two most common finish polishes done - Hadori or Sashikomi. I am wondering if it should ever happen that a koto blade would be changed from Sashikomi to a Hadori polish by a professional toshigi to make the hamon "pop out" to make the blade more attractive to some buyers?

 

Personally although the hadori can be pretty spectacular and seems of late the one of choice by many (collectors and polishers) it would not in reality be considered a traditional polish and in some cases NOT the one on the blade originally.

[nagamaki - Franco]

I am wondering if it should ever happen that a koto blade would be changed from Sashikomi to a Hadori polish by a professional toshigi to make the hamon "pop out" to make the blade more attractive to some buyers?

 

It has been my experience that a professional polisher will use the finish that best brings out the character of the sword based upon their experience, regardless of marketing pressures. This has been reinforced through discussions with professional polishers I've used, in fact it is my impression that they would take issue with this even being suggested.

 

Personally although the hadori can be pretty spectacular and seems of late the one of choice by many (collectors and polishers) it would not in reality be considered a traditional polish and in some cases NOT the one on the blade originally.

 

Really, then I will be certain to let the professional Japanese polisher who polished my sword that he and his Honami referenced books had it all wrong when he finished the Koto sword sent to him in a hadori finish, such nonsense!

 

Seriously, this hadori vs sashikomi nonsense has to stop. Study each, learn how to appreciate each, discuss the merits of each until your hearts content, then, choose whichever one tickles your fancy for your own swords, and then let it go. Not everything in this world needs to end in a this versus that, or how much is it worth.

[Jean]

Brian, it works both side depending also of the Customer wish. I have a friend who won't take anything but sashikomi.

 

But an hadori on an ito suguha ... Not bad

[loui]

Some blades don't take a type of polish very well, all depends on what is in hand at the time, and sometimes a blade is just so tired it needs a little make up - keisho.

 

Louis

[drbvac]

Just realized this is in the wrong section but NO clue how to move it perhaps Brian can.

 

`Quote:: Really, then I will be certain to let the professional Japanese polisher who polished my sword that he and his Honami referenced books had it all wrong when he finished the Koto sword sent to him in a hadori finish, such nonsense! AND It has been my experience that a professional polisher will use the finish that best brings out the character of the sword based upon their experience

 

I trust your first comment is accurate they do what they think will be the best for the blade in question - I am in no way questioning the Professionals opinion of what would look best - the statement was:

 

Would they not use the same polish as the original to maintain the tradition and restore the blade as it was when forged and polished originally - may not be their choice as favourite but accurate. I am trying to make sure in my own mind that no togishi would change the original polish style to suit either themselves or potential purchasers and I would bet otherwise in many cases.

 

Seriously, this hadori vs sashikomi nonsense has to stop. Study each, learn how to appreciate each, discuss the merits of each until your hearts content, then, choose whichever one tickles your fancy for your own swords, and then let it go. Not everything in this world needs to end in a this versus that, or how much is it worth.

 

IT was never a question of what is personal preference discussion or merits of either - if you read my post accurately - I already stated I like sashikomi personally and am already well aware of what they look like and what I appreciate - where did you get the idea it is this versus that and cost - read - I guess reading is not waiting to reply either.

 

The point was if as YOU stated the blade will be polished in the style the toshigi thinks will be best for the blade itself and may not necessarily be a restoration to the polish style it was done with when forged.

[cabowen]

The hadori, or kesho, polish is a rather modern invention unknown in earlier times so if one wanted to repolish a blade in the style it was originally polished in, nearly all swords would be repolished in a sashi-komi style.

[drbvac]

Chris:

 

Thanks for the short concise accurate ( as I thought ) answer. You obviously read before you reply

 

That said is it therefore up to the toshigi to determine - even though a koto blade may have originally has a sashikomi polish that it may not be capable of being restored as original but would be better saved with Hadori - especially if polished several times over the last 4-500 years? That would make sense and preserve the maximum amount of steel.

 

Thanks

[cabowen]

That said is it therefore up to the toshigi to determine - even though a koto blade may have originally has a sashikomi polish that it may not be capable of being restored as original but would be better saved with Hadori - especially if polished several times over the last 4-500 years? That would make sense and preserve the maximum amount of steel.

 

Thanks

 

Practically speaking you aren't going to save steel by using a sashi-komi polish instead of a kesho style. It is stylistic choice, not one made with preservation in mind.

[drbvac]

Now I am confused - Why would restoration to the original smith/toshigi style be ignored and changed based on the opinion and/or preference of a 21st century polisher?

 

If I was to restore a 14th century painting I don't think I would get away with changing colors because I like burgundy better than red, especially if the color didnt even exist when originally painted.

[cabowen]

The "technology" of polishing advanced with time, as did the appreciation of the blades, some say due to the advances in polishing.

 

Blade making and polishing are almost symbiotic crafts.

 

Without question fad and fashion have played a large role in the sword craft. Currently the hadori polish is very popular. Not everyone likes it and thus sashi-komi is still seen on rare occasion. Both have their place. The relative merits and demerits of both has been discussed and debated here and elsewhere ad nauseam. I won't open that can of worms...

 

Why would a polisher repolish a blade that was in sashi-komi with a kesho finish? That is a reasonable question. It seems in fact I asked that very question here recently and I will give you the answer I received: "because it was deemed the best finish for the blade at the time". Maybe that satisfies you but it left me wanting....I suspect there are several possibilities, ranging from it is what the customer wanted to the simple fact that there are very few polishers around today that can competently do a traditional sashi-komi polish. I know that to be true because I asked many polishers in Japan if they do sashi-komi and they all told me the same thing- few still can....

[sanjuro]

Chris.

the simple fact that there are very few polishers around today that can competently do a traditional sashi-komi polish.

 

An obvious question perhaps, but the answer to which may add some perspective to the thread. Why? By this I mean what are the difficulties or differences (apart from the use of hadori) In a sashikomi versus kesho polish ? The same or similar stones are used surely, and the stages of polishing are the same or similar (possibly fewer in the case of sashikomi). I'm assuming here that its the last stage of polishing that is fundamentally different or more complex. I'm not getting into the merits or demerits, just the practical differences.

 

With luck I'll get an answer to this before the usual sh*t fight over polishing starts, and the thread gets closed. For some reason, polishing is the least understood yet most divisive subject among collectors.

[cabowen]

That is a great question....for a polisher!

 

The details of the differences were explained to me in detail several years ago but unfortunately, not being a polisher, it is not something that found a place in long term memory.....

[sanjuro]

Dammit Chris! ..... Where the hell am I going to find a traditionally trained polisher on this board????????? :D

 

Just kidding ...... Dont shoot me. Perhaps a polisher (recognised but not necessarily traditionally trained) out there would care to answer my question and enlighten me.

[Guido]

Maybe my article "Polishing and Conservation of the Japanese Sword" in the article sub-forum might be of interest to some readers of this thread. It's probably personally biased, but I tried to give the facts as straight as possible. It's also slightly dated, but I somehow never got around to send the newest version to Brian (o.k., added to my to-do list ).

 

In any case, a question I always ask those who say that Sashikomi is more traditional: since Hadori (in a less refined way than how it was done from the Meiji period on) is around since at least the mid-Edo period, how do you define "traditional"? Maybe we should stay away from Japanese swords and collect stone age spear points if we want *really* traditional techniques ....?

[cabowen]

I suppose whatever was on the scene first is considered traditional, thus, in historical terms, the hadori is a late comer....even though it is still hardly new, as Guido has pointed out....The fact that new techniques began to be used in the Meiji era contributes to the image of hadori being some modern creation, that it is a "gendai" technique....

 

Not to mix the streams, but one aspect I wish to discuss at the polishing exhibit at our October show and shinsa is the differences between the two types of polishes with good and bad examples of each, as well as the correct way to view a sword. I have heard too many people say that they do not like kesho polishes because it hides all the activity in the blade. With a good kesho polish viewed correctly, this is not true. Hopefully this will set the record straight...

[loui]

I have asked many questions with respect to the types of finish, Keisho, modern sashikomi and even an older sashikomi with no burnishing - or maybe it's just a preference but was more acceptable in times of old. Anyway, there are a few reasons why one would use one polish over the other, tradition, type of blade, condition of sword, tempering of the sword, polishers training, polishers choice, customers choice etc etc. Yes a keisho finish can be very hard to see though if done too harsh, some keisho polishing is done with a machine if you can believe it, no idea how or why but done none the less, some keisho is done with a chemical process (no idea how - I repolished a blade done with a hybrid polish for a customer, the chemical process actually hid a hagire, was amazing to see it under there), keisho can also be done to trick a person - make them believe the blade has a complete temper but in fact does not - or maybe has lost the temper all together. Some claim a keisho finish to just be plain deceiving.

 

My opinions take them or leave them depending on how you view my polishing are this, (and my opinions change as my tastes and experiences change, and I am always discussing polishing with polishers fully trained and otherwise), sometimes a blade will just look very poorly in sashikomi finish with varying reasons from type of tempering, tired blades etc, and sometimes a sashikomi finish is what is needed, some say that very few blades will actually really take a sashikomi finish well - but that notion might be skewed for personal reasons.

 

With keisho there are a meriad of reasons as well and here are some but not limited to, a swordsmith making a sword today may prefer his work to be done in either, or a sword is very tired and a keisho finish is thought best to dress it up (for looks or to make look better for selling), maybe a papering body prefers a specific polish (???), some blades with much activity look great with a keisho finish if done properly , all of the activities are highlights, and if not over done the nioi guchi/tempering can be seen very easily. Fashion is definitely a factor - simply could be that keisho is in fashion.

 

If one were to polish a blade as the smith intended then that is a whole new topic, how would we know what smith preferred what final polish? And it would mean that all swords made before keisho was discovered were polish with sashikomi, and any swords made before sashikomi were polished up to nagura and then previous to that..... and so on. Frankly it is impossible to know what style was preferred or used in most cases. One other issue is this, and hold on to your hats, here we go......much emphasis is placed on making sure that the finished product represents the work of the smith in the end, and as polishers the colour of the steel is a large piece of the puzzle, but keep in mind that both styles of polishing utilize two different nugui in the finish polish, sashikomi uses a mixture to darken the ji (very simplified) and lighten the tempered area, keisho finish uses a different nugui to darken the ji and the as a result the tempered area becomes darker - and is then whitened and highlighted with hadori work. So the two different finishes result in two final steel (ji) colouring (keisho most often darker than sashikomi) - so how does this represent the proper colour of the steel. But perhaps it is more of a philosophical polishers question than one for here.

[loui]

I'll show these pics, I was requested by a person to polish this blade in this particular manner, no burnishing, a tired old blade but in the owners eyes best to not have burnishing and best in sashikomi, he was right, the blade wasn't quite done there but these are the only pics I could find. No peddling my work but I thought a good example to show, keisho on this blade would have had a very different outcome, the nugui would have muted much of the tempering effects on this sword, burnishing of the mune and shinogiji would have muted much of the tempering as well - the mune was even on fire when viewed. You be the judge. This is an interesting topic and would be nice to not have it locked up - I have faith!

 

The pictures also provide a decent angle in the light to view a sword - for the new guys. This viewing with a sword finished with keisho should provide the same result - a nice nioi/tempering structure.

[drbvac]

Thank you gentlemen for the clarifications but my original question still remains - if you were in fact collecting stone age spears it would defeat the purpose to put them on a stone and change them because you didnt think they were sharp enough

 

While I do appreciate the difference in the 2 techniques and would surely appreciate as much information as possible ( Thanks Guido) I must say I am still confused about changing the original polish for any reason.

 

As the making and the polish are tied together as with the analogy of other art restorations why would it be deemed acceptable in restoration of a koto blade to change the appearance for any reason, if in fact it is known or the toshigi knows the blade has not been polished since made.

 

I believe if in a sincere attempt to restore a blade, if originally done in either manner, would it not be presumptive to change it? Especially if as stated earlier in the posts the toshigi has no idea how to do both, again regardless of where or how trained.

 

As i said if I was asked to restore a matisse painting I dont think it would be appropriate to change the painting to look like a picasso because thats how I was trained or thats the look I liked.

 

This is not so much a question of different techniques as it is a question of changing something that was done one way traditionally to another as that is the current fad?

[loui]

How about this, the polisher endeavors to maintain the characteristics of the sword as the smith intended based on available knowledge at the time of the polish.

 

Louis

[Jean]

Brian,

 

Main aim of polishing in old times was to sharpen the blade and repair battle scars, the blades were primarily weapons. I am not sure that the Kamakura/Nambokucho sashikomi correspond to what is done today.

 

Nowadays, Hadori vs Sashikomi has nothing to do with changing a Matisse to a Goya. It does not destroyed the blade, nor change it, it is only a way of disclosing details at the very last stage.

 

You have no way to know the first polish of a Shinto blade .... So why ask for koto blades as it is valid in all times.

[drbvac]

So in terms of restoration and the analogy to art it is similar to the person who removes 500 years of smoke and other pollution from the original oil and brings out the original inner beauty that the artist put there. The painting isnt changed its restored.

 

I get it - the toshigi with his knowledge can pick the proper medium to show the best attributes of the blade regardless of when it was made to allow all to see the beauty the smith created

 

Thanks gents - all a matter of perspective aint it.

[Clive Sinclaire]

Gentlemen

Correct me if I am wrong, as I am sure you will, but I seem to remember being told that the kesho polish was popularised in the Meiji period by the Honnami polishers as their customer base had moved away from samurai to non-samurai collectors and this more decorative style was easier for ordinary people to see and appreciate. Also, I believe it gained further popularity as it was encouraged by the NBTHK for swords going to shinsa. Finally, I have also been told that sashi-komi is really only suitable for nioi-deki blades.

 

Like I say, the above is only from memory, so may not be totally accurate, so please be gentle with me when correcting me!

 

I have spent most of today drawing osshigata and am completely "cream-crackered" (cockney rhyming slang) so.......

Regards and Good Night

Clive Sinclaire

[sanjuro]

Brian.

 

if as stated earlier in the posts the toshigi has no idea how to do both, again regardless of where or how trained.

 

In all fairness to the togishi, this was in fact not said at all. The statement was to the effect that few still can perform a sashikomi polish, not that they had 'no idea' of how to perform one. It is more a matter of practice than of knowledge. I have it on fairly good authority that Apprentices to Japanese togishi are still taught how to do a sashikomi polish although they are not often called upon to do one, and most educated collectors leave the style of polish up to the togishi in any case.

The Hadori polish is usually recommended/preferred for all the reasons stated, and it is only for particular swords that a sashikomi polish is actually a better choice of polish and would be recommended, again for the reasons already stated.

 

How did I get suddenly educated you may ask, since I was the one asking the question about the differences in the two types of polish? .............I emailed Japan (several emails actually) and asked a togishi....... (Actually, I asked his apprentice) :D I also copped a fair lecture on Nioi and Nie which apparently is the crux among other considerations, of why one polish is preferred over the other.

 

Incidentally, Thanks to Guido for pointing me to that article of his.... It was that which prompted me to email Japan for further clarification.

[cabowen]

Sounds like you have been given the scoop....

[sanjuro]

Chris.

Not so much 'the scoop' as you put it. I asked him that he keep the information fairly simple (I'm only a collector after all), and I am still trying to process all that he told me. It isnt a simple subject by any means as you know.

The effect that it has had however, is that I am now rethinking my former preference for sashikomi polish. Yes, its a stylistic choice but it is so much more than that and one would be a fool to not listen to a togishi when he says your sword would take this or that style of polish better. At the end of the day the style of polish is suggested by the sword itself, and for the sword to suggest a sashikomi polish over a hadori finish there must be certain criteria to be met by the sword. Those criteria are what drives the togishi's recommendations concerning the type of polish. Comparatively speaking, few swords demand a sashikomi polish to the exclusion of a hadori polish. Not really a scoop........ an awakening (at least for me) perhaps.

The 'traditional' thing is something else.... dependant upon what you think traditional really is. In fact, traditional is not polished to the point where you can clearly see blade features. Swords are weapons and you dont need a shiny blade with a flashy hamon showing in order to chop someone into dog meat. Polish to any artistic degree is not traditional in real terms.

[cabowen]

It isnt a simple subject by any means as you know.

 

By no means...

 

The effect that it has had however, is that I am now rethinking my former preference for sashikomi polish. Yes, its a stylistic choice but it is so much more than that and one would be a fool to not listen to a togishi when he says your sword would take this or that style of polish better. At the end of the day the style of polish is suggested by the sword itself, and for the sword to suggest a sashikomi polish over a hadori finish there must be certain criteria to be met by the sword. Those criteria are what drives the togishi's recommendations concerning the type of polish. Comparatively speaking, few swords demand a sashikomi polish to the exclusion of a hadori polish.

 

Yeah!!! Couldn't have said it better.....

[sanjuro]

I'm just thinking out loud here, Read this as ('rationalising his own epiphany'), so correct me if I am thinking amiss.

 

If you are following 'tradition' then traditionally speaking, a sword was only polished if it was blunt, damaged or rusty. In fact polishing is really an extension of the process originally used to put a fine edge on the blade. Assuming that the sword you have is suffering from none of these, then you are breaking with 'tradition' by polishing that sword solely to bring out its blade qualities. You are in effect sacrificing tradition for art. If so, then why not get the most appropriate polish to achieve that end?

[drbvac]

So traditionally it was a weapon and has turned into an art form - I appreciate both heritages but as beautiful as some may be in either polish, it is first ( in my humble mind) the ultimate sword and secondly a piece of art. So tradition lives on and I prefer the way they were as it was! To each his own.

 

The history and legends of the Samauri were not forged on an art form. I guess its like engraved pistols and Sam Colts navy revolver. She aint real purty but she gets the job done.

 

Interesting discussions and clarifications for all !

[Guido]

I appreciate both heritages but as beautiful as some may be in either polish, it is first ( in my humble mind) the ultimate sword and secondly a piece of art.

I guess that's where we get to the cross roads - personally, I'm not really interested in Nihontô as weapons (a machete would probably do an equally good job) but only as an art form.

To each his own.

Indeed (and absolutely no sarcasm intended).

I guess its like engraved pistols and Sam Colts navy revolver. She aint real purty but she gets the job done

I own a 1836 Navy Colt, and think it looks real purty . I also own a Henry Rifle with Nimschke engraving; the scroll work doesn't add anything to functionality, but doesn't it give the rifle the extra touch that makes it much more desireable than a plain one?

[drbvac]

Nice way to end Guido - I do appreciate something that is beautiful and can cut you in half as well.