Tsuba collection research #2

[edzo]

Greetings to all,

 

Below are three more Tsuba from the collection that i am seeking input on.

images Q86, Q89 and Q90.

Thank You,

Ed F

[Henry Wilson]

The first tsuba looks late Edo period Higo to me. A stylized form of these kanji might be on the plate. 風　　雨

 

The crawling dragon tsuba could be a shakudo plate in bad condition. The quality does not look that good in my opinion (but that might be the condition and photos). The gold plug fill suggests that it could be of a reasonable quality as someone was prepared to put some money into it.

 

The hot stamp tsuba is probably made from Yamagane (a type of copper). The removal of corrosion would be a mistake in my opinion. Try handling it with cotton gloves or a cloth to prevent the corrosion developing. I don't think any Goto smith produced the yamagane tsuba of the style that you have posted. However they did put crests on some of their kodogu.

 

I hope these rambling thoughts help

[edzo]

Hi Mr. Henry Wilson and thanks for your response and help.

Regarding the Q86 image, stamped soft metal, I examined the inner rim of the nakago ana that included a sekigana at the top, obviously copper. It did not compare to the other areas which seemed upon close examination to have a bronze or brassy look to it though very dark. The rim mimi looked to me initially, to be a fukurin but after much thought i concluded it was turned back and concluded that it may be brass or shinchu.

 

Regarding the "Goto" reference, I read a detailed description by an expert for Christies NY, regarding a similar stamped tsuba but of yamagane footnoted his description with that memorandum so I tucked it away in my memory and considered it and wanted to share it.

 

The design of the two crests give rise to me that this tsuba may have been ordered during the begining of Japans unification specifically while Nobunaga and Hideyoshi were in control. I would think it to be of that period as opposed to 18th-19th century.

 

Regarding the first Tsuba it is definitely iron (magnetic), and i would not think shakudo. To me it reeks of a makers skill and possibly a special order.

 

Respectfully, Ed F

[Henry Wilson]

Dear Ed

 

You're welcome.

 

Yamagane is a raw form of copper and is more of an alloy compared to the purer copper that is used in sekigane so there is going to be some sort of visual difference.

 

The crests to me look like the royal chrysanthemum and the shogun mon.

 

http://wapedia.mobi/en/Mon_%28crest%29

 

I am sure others will have something say as well so stay tuned.

[Curran]

#89 Edo Higo

#90 Uncertain. Probably 1800s Shoami.

#85 Ko-Kinko. Nice little one.

[Henry Wilson]

It might be fun to compare the hot stamp one with this:

 

http://www.yamabushiantiques.com/CH%20Tsuba%207.htm

[edzo]

Dear Curran,

 

Thank you for you input. You have given me ground for more research and study. Your comments were very resolute regarding Q89 and Q86 (you referred to as Q85.)-Ko-Kinko. If you can see your way clear if u have a chance, What feature of Q89 screams Higo to you? I can relate to the other pieces. Don't wish to be a nuisance just thought I'd ask. Thanks again for your input,

 

Ed F.

[Henry Wilson]

The tsuba shape, the inlay, the hitsuana and the softness of the metal suggest Higo. Have a look at the first two on this sight to compare:

 

http://www.swordsandtsuba.com/tsuba/higotsuba.html

[edzo]

Awesome, Thank you curran. Ed F

[Henry Wilson]

It's Henry :D

[Curran]

Yeah, Henry and I look nothing alike!

(Meant as a joke.)

 

By Edo Higo, the emphasis is Edo. Ie. NOT Higo.... but rather later work done in Edo by artisans trained in the voguish Higo style.

Without going into it in too much detail, the proportions of the tsuba are largish and slightly clumsy. The tsuba design is also a mix of Higo subschools, loosely imitating Jingo work with dashes of others.

 

You might consider purchasing "Tsuba an Aesthetic Study" from: http://www.ncjsc.org/publications_for_sale.htm

A softback but good sized photocopy of the original, at $25 it is one of the best bargains in existence and will serve as sort of a field guide to anything we say. I don't know how many fittings you intend to show, but if more that a dozen.... then get the book and settle in.

____________________________________

Moderator Brian forgive me for thread jumping, but I'm in a rush this morning....

The other thread you posted: Top one signed Masatsune- That would probably be Bushu Ito. Sub school could easily be looked up, though Masatsune is common name.

Bottom one: Edo generic kinko without distinquishing refinement. Interesting only in the lining placed in nakago ana.

[edzo]

Dear Curran,

 

Thanks for the input. I will send a check off today for the book. Most of my library is related to nihonto and gendaito edged weapons. I plan on continuing to submit some images and descriptions, some of that i am confident with but would welcome a dialogue. I thought that at the least, the Tsubaka would enjoy seeing.

 

Respectfully, and thanks again for sharing your knowledge, Ed F

[Soshin]

Hi Ed F.,

 

Q86 is a nice Ko-Kinko tsuba likely dating to the Momoyama Period. I don't think it is Goto. If you have seen examples of Ko-Goto or Goto tsuba you would know that I mean. I mean this with all due respect. Signs of what I think is worn black lacquer can be observed on both sided. These type of tsuba were often lacquered before the Edo Period. Not completely sure unless I can see it in hand. Please do not try to clean this tsuba in anyway! The other tsuba not sure but others have commented on them. I hope you find this information helpful.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[edzo]

Dear Mr. D. Stiles, thank you for your input very much. MHO was that I could not see any connection to Goto (based upon the tiny knowledge I have), but mentioned it because it was a footnote on a similar piece (stamped soft metal), offered by Christies NY in a previous sale. I thought to share that info but can't speak to its accuracy as a fact. In any event, i'm more comfortable with thinking that it didn't fit. I was forming the opinion that it may be momoyama and not earlier because of the two crests being present, (if that information source was correct.)

I thank you for your participation again, respectfully Ed F Hopefully, other will benefit from this thread.

[edzo]

Dear Mr. Stiles and H. Wilson,

 

FYI I took the liberty to post an image and caption regarding Goto and hot stamp tsuba that i turned up on my research of "Q86" above. This is not to say I doubt any of your advice but merely as a point of information, I have seen at least two others as well. Thank you all for your assistance. Ed F.

 

Signed Goto Hokkyo Ichijo and kao (1791-1876). Pair of tsuba (dai-sho). Shakudo plate with stamped surface design. These tsuba are certified by Amiya Soe (Ogura Soemon). Thickness at center 3.5 mm

[Rich T]

Hi all, I agree with Curran and Henry except for the 2nd (dragon) tsuba. It looks like mid Edô Kyôto Kinko work to me and if no particular group can be found, then most like Kyô Kinko.

 

That's just my wild guess anyways lol

 

Cheers

 

Rich

[edzo]

Dear Rich,

Thank you for your time and response. I was hanging somewhat on that tsuba which i like very much. I do not know as much as the members assisting me and they have been outstanding pointing me in a productive direction or put me on track. Absent of another direction for me on this your suggestion will follow, It make sense in my mind. Thank you very much, Ed F

[Guido]

Ichijô, at the end of the Edo period, often worked outside of the standard Gotô techniques. I think it highly unlikely that these Tsuba were hot-stamped, more likely carved.

[edzo]

Dear Mr. Shiller,

 

I am familiar with your name from articles that i have read (likely you), and look forward to more informative commentary. I am young at this interest and am learning. The Goto reference first came to me from the 12/17/92 Christies NY catalog of the Dr. Walter Compton Sale. It appears on page 30 item #67 together with an image while researching the Q86 image posted in this thread. In addition I encountered this on a web site displaying a respected collection, and source that compelled me to post the example and quotation. Apparently, there are strong convictions on this. In this thread I posted the work that i have and clearly the designs are punched or stamped. The two sites i encountered the reference i made included images but not having the pieces in hand for enhanced magnification and scrutiny left me to a logical visual observation and best opinion together with the descriptions. I am not qualified to take a position in contrast to your post -carved vs stamped (that i sincerely appreciate), it was an effort to share something i felt worthy of mentioning on the topic. I am very grateful and appreciative for your post and visit. I will continue my research with regard to your point in an effort to build a reliable knowledge base. Respectfully, Ed F

[BMarkhasin]

Edward,

 

As others have pointed out, Q86 is a kokinko tsuba, likely dating to the latest Muromachi to Momoyama period. The two mon are stamps, as was common in the period and this style of tsuba. These were made for the mass market and were basically mass produced, with minor differences in the treatment of the plate. It is almost certainly made of yamagane. I suspect the hitsu-ana is actually original. It retains a considerable amount of lacquer on the plate, so dont attempt to clean it outside of a very soft toothbrush and warm water to get rid of any surface grunge. You may want to apply a light choji oil coating with a soft cotton cloth if you feel the patina and remnant lacquer looks overly dry.

 

Best,

Boris.

[Soshin]

Dear Edward F.,

 

I still think your tsuba to be considerably older in age and is a member of the Ko-Kinko group. I think you would notice some very significant differences if you had the Goto tsuba in hand to compare. The photo of the Goto tsuba is so poor I can't see much including the surface texture. Your tsuba has what I think are signs of lacquer being allied at some point in the distant past. This was a common practice of bushi before the Edo Period. To correct a minor technical point hot stamp were not used in soft metal alloy tsuba (i.e. kinko) only in iron tsuba. Stamp like design were often done with a special type of chisel and hammer. It is discussed in the following blog about a tsuba made by someone who trained with the late Edo Period Goto masters: http://kodogunosekai.com/2011/06/18/imai-nagatake-%E4%BB%8A%E4%BA%95%E6%B0%B8%E6%AD%A6%E3%80%80%E8%8A%B1%E6%8A%BC/. I hope you find the information helpful in your study.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[edzo]

Greetings members and thanks for the input,

 

Dear Mr Stiles and Boris,

 

I am excited that you have taken the time to share your thoughts. I am not confused regarding the Q86 tsuba that I posted and am comfortable with what it is. To clarify my comfort zone with the tsuba in question, Q86, my conclusions are concurrent with those of Mr. Stiles. Regarding my mention of the Goto, that was for information purposes only because it surfaced in my research. I am familiar with the “masterpiece achievements” of Goto and the unparalleled quality/skill that set them apart from others. My intent was to share these perspectives with others that are learning, (objective and stimulating thinking), as well as, in the event these links have not been encountered before for whatever reason, but at least the study. Had I not encountered this reference in three different unrelated sources I would have been reluctant to post it. Respectfully Ed F.