"Namban" tsuba - cast copies?

[davidian]

This post relates to one on this forum from May 12. I noticed this tsuba for sale on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250855735582&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_5001wt_1398. It struck me as very similar to one I seen in my wanderings, which is here: http://www.shibuiswords.com/namban3.htm. Allowing for differences in photo angles, and the rough condition of the eBay version, still I cannot find any tiny detail in which the two differ; a casting seam is visible in neither. Both are similar to the tsuba posted at the end of the May 12 thread, although in that case the photo is not so clear and there may be differences. The first two are attributed by their respective vendors to early Edo and Muromachi. I am guessing either that one is a very faithful copy of the other, or that both (and perhaps all three) are copies of something else. Any comments?

 

Regards from a newcomer,

 

David Martin

[Lorenzo]

Both tsuba are cast fakes. From the same mould, and modern. In fact this is pretty convinving evidence as exact duplicates like this would ahve been impossible in the past. The mould I'm talking of would have been a rtubber one (taken from the original tsuba) and this was used to create a wax copy. Note how the nakago ana on both are identical. The gold traces on the ebay sample is probably just paint.

[sanjuro]

What I find ironic is that the original from which these tsuba were copied, wasnt even Japanese in the first place.

[Soshin]

Here are some scans of this "tsuba" I owned at one time. I sold it on eBay as a vintage cast iron Nanban style copy. I orginally purchased in Japan. This one like all of the others are just vintage cast iron copies.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[elliottshogun]

Some time ago, I asked a question about 'cast tsuba' to which Dr. John Lissenden (sp) (who wrote the book on Namban tsuba) educated me on this subject. I had a signed 'Masahisa' tsuba that was cast and was the subject of my initial questions to the Nihonto Study Group. I am continously studying Namban style tsuba with the help of my Sensei Robert Haynes.

 

To date, I don't believe any of my Namban tsuba are cast. This belief may change over time.

 

I really don't consider myself a 'vendor', more of a student/collector. We all have our own opinions.

 

Elliott

[davidian]

To date, I don't believe any of my Namban tsuba are cast. This belief may change over time.

 

I really don't consider myself a 'vendor', more of a student/collector. We all have our own opinions.

 

Elliott

 

I think the example posted above by David Stiles clinches it: they are all cast copies. The Stiles example can be compared in detail with Elliot's (http://www.shibuiswords.com/namban3.htm) and they are precisely the same. For example look at the wear on the surround of the pearl or jewel at ~11 o'clock: the same defect is present in both.

 

I am not sure that it is fair to call these "fakes". Copies for sure, but quite possibly not meant to deceive. At any rate, Elliot there is no way that yours is "Late Muromachi/early Momoyama" as your web site implies. The design maybe, but not these tsubas.

 

Regards to all,

[elliottshogun]

David,

 

You are correct, I was in error and am correcting this today. I have three Namban that are late Edo pieces and are possible copies of an original because I have seen duplicates everywhere.

 

And I will update my website info with the appropriate corrections....... all part of the learning process.

 

Elliott

[elliottshogun]

To 'All' who are involved in this discussion:

 

How many of you are attending the SF Token Kai? I will certainly bring my Namban Tsuba, especially those (3) which very possibly are considered cast. My invitation is for you to stop by my table and further discuss casting.

 

I will also contact Dr. John Lissenden in the UK and get some added input from him.

 

WOW! What a boost to my education.

 

Elliott

[elliottshogun]

To both David's,

 

I just compared my (in hand) Kannan (Namban) to the images sent by David and they are NOT identical. The seigaiha diaper patterns are different, the ana's are of different design (very small ingraved spots) and my seppa dai show signs of being mounted (wear on the diaper pattern).

 

I am still in agreement that mine may be cast.

 

Elliott

[Soshin]

Hi Elliott,

 

Here are some other photos from when I sold my tsuba. When I purchased it in Japan it came with a copper Habaki, seppa that fit it nicely and a collectors note in Japanese. The habaki and seppa looked like it would fit a wakazashi nicely. The collectors note said "Nanban Tsuba", Edo Period" with measurements but I listed it as Meiji or Taisho Period vintage piece as I couldn't confirm the date it was made. Unfortunately I cannot attend the San Francisco Token Kai. The next show I will be at will be next year's Florida Token Kai for the NTHK Shinsa. Thanks for posting some of Bob Haynes writing on your website I enjoy reading them.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[elliottshogun]

David,

 

I contacted Bob and told him I was bringing all my Namban tsuba to SF and that we could talk about each one. I have re-read the 'Tsuba, An Aesthetic Study' and Dr. John's 'Reappraisal of Namban Sword Guards'. Now, I am re-writing (on my web site) some info that I put in incorrectly. The 'cast' part is still an area for continued study, it was certainly used in the late Edo for the mass production pieces.

 

I may look into attending the Florida show. I will stay in touch.

 

Elliott

[davidian]

Hi Elliott:

 

The plot thickens. I agree that having multiple examples in hand to study would advance things, but I don't have any of them. The issue of casting is the subject of a long string elsewhere on the NMB: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10717 From that discussion I get an impression of immense confusion. There is so much to learn.

 

Best,

 

DM

[Toryu2020]

Elliott et al -

These same questions have been on my mind, i look forward to seeing you and Bob and talkin "Barbarian" in August.

-t

[davidian]

And here is yet another, this time very obviously painted: http://cgi.ebay.com/TSUBA-KANTON-TSUBA-dragon-Edo-iron-de120-/350482443447?pt=Asian_Antiques&hash=item519a61acb7#ht_4420wt_927.

 

There must have been a great many of these run off. Still, I wonder what the original looked (or looks) like?

 

Best regards,

[Soshin]

I was hoping that Elliott, Lorenzo, Thomas, or David or others could provide a updated post SF Token Kai about what was discussed on the topic of cast Namban tsuba. I would love to know if any new facts or examples were uncovered. Thanks for taking the time to update the topic.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[elliottshogun]

David et al,

 

I haven't recovered from the fabulous SF Token Kai. Just the thought of having unlimited access to Robert Haynes kept me busy for three days. We discussed every tsuba that I brought to the show.

 

As soon as I gather my thoughts, I will pass on any info about Namban (Kanton, Kagonami) tsuba that I have even though the conversations pertained more to the amount of work that goes into each piece (there are exceptions). Casting was not the main topic of conversation.

 

More later..............

 

Elliott

[davidian]

Hi all:

 

I can't comment on the SF show, but there can be no question that the tsubas shown previously in this string are cast copies of something. Not necessarily fakes per se, but definitely not originals. As for what an "original" might have looked like, so far I have found this example:http://sanmei.com/contents/media/tuba_guard132S.htm. Although it is not quite the same design, it has stylistic similarities to the cast copies that are the subject of this string. Of course, I am not certain that it isn't itself a cast copy of something, but it appears to have been worked, and at least there don't seem to be numberless examples of it floating around.

 

Best regards,

[elliottshogun]

All,

 

The last rounds of discussion about Namban (et al) being cast or not is not important to me. What is important (to me) is the 'aesthetic' quality of any school of tsuba. I study and purchase those tsuba that I buy with my 'heart'. Admittedly, I have purchased and studied many Namban tsuba. I have read 3 or 4 times, Dr. John Lissenden's book and will no doubt read it again.

 

What Dr. Torigoye wrote about the three types/classes of Namban tsuba I concur with and use this as a basis for determining the style of those that I own. I have one Namban papered by the NBTHK that is not signed. I also have a Namban made in Hizen, with European influence and it is forged, not cast.

 

All that Bob Haynes and I did with my Namban tsuba was confirm which style of tsuba each was: Namban, Kanton or Kagonami.

 

Elliott

[Soshin]

The last rounds of discussion about Namban (et al) being cast or not is not important to me.

Elliott

Hi Elliott,

 

Lets all relax because the weekend is almost here. :D I didn't think the above quote was intended topic of the thread. I was thinking that the topic of the tread was about a specific example of a fairly common Namban style cast iron copy. As a group Namban, Kanton, or Kagonami tsuba and the specific sub-classifications (Hizen, Nagasaki, etc.) are not made of cast iron. I have two Kanton style Namban tsuba in my collection one with a dealer paper and I can assure everyone that neither are made of cast iron but are made of forged iron with craved designs.

 

All that Bob Haynes and I did with my Namban tsuba was confirm which style of tsuba each was: Namban, Kanton or Kagonami.

 

I think this would be a great topic for discussion on the NMB Tosogu forum. I really like Bob Haynes and Torigoye ideas about a more detail classification of Namban tsuba group in Tsuba An Aesthetic Study.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles