Icepic Posted February 5, 2011 Report Share Posted February 5, 2011 I have been wondering if the wood swords that the Samurai used in practice and duels any different than those used today? Certainly in the right hands they are a very effective weapon. Do authentic antique bokken ever come up for sale ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanjuro Posted February 5, 2011 Report Share Posted February 5, 2011 Hi. As far as I know, the bokken we have today (apart from the plastic tsuba and rubber retainer)are not fundamentally different to those used by the samurai in practice. Some refinement of kissaki shape and the addition of a more pronounced shinogi are really the only developments since the bokken was first used. There was also a variety of straight bokken in early use. Some bokken are of a straight configuration and are much thicker and heavier, these are called siburito and are used for strength training in repetitive simulated cutting actions. Bokken become bruised and splintered with use as the wood dries out, and are generally dicarded for a new one, since a damaged bokken can be quite dangerous. Modern bokken have a varnish coating which slows down the drying process. This coating was not present on very old bokken which were usually oiled to keep the wood in good condition and to prevent splitting or splintering with use. I'm not that sure that bokken were used in serious duels except of course by Miyamoto Musashi. If you really want to kill someone, then a sword is much better than a bokken. Bokken were used in friendly bouts between samurai (If there is such a thing as a friendly fight). in demonstration bouts and in kenjutsu practice to keep down the casualties. After all, one doesnt want little yoshi, one's only begotten son and heir, coming home to mommy and daddy from a day at the dojo with some of his bits missing does one? I have seen antique bokken in auctions but not frequently. The genuine ones I have knowledge of that have sold at auction bring fairly decent prices. There was a group of old bokken auctioned some time ago from one of the Japanesecastle armouries. As I recall they were snapped up at quite high prices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estcrh Posted February 5, 2011 Report Share Posted February 5, 2011 Antique practice swords along with staff weapons such as the bō rarely come up for sale. Probably they were not seen as being particularly valuable or interesting, and they did get used and banged up quite a bit. You can occasionally find them for sale in Japan (yahoo Japan etc). Here are pictures of an old Japanese practice sword and a link to some old kendo equipment. http://s831.photobucket.com/albums/zz23 ... ?start=all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baka Gaijin Posted February 5, 2011 Report Share Posted February 5, 2011 Morning all, Here's an example of Bokken/Bokuto preserved (Jisso Enman no Bokuto): http://www.hyoho.com/Hyoho1.html Here's a modern maker of the major Koryu styles: http://www.bokkenshop.com/category_s/43.htm And then there's Yakumaru Jigen Ryu and others which use branches from trees (still with bark on in some cases): Cheers Malcolm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanjuro Posted February 5, 2011 Report Share Posted February 5, 2011 Eric. The sword or rather bokuto you have illustrated here is in my humble opinion unlikely to have been meant as a practice weapon. The fact that it is lacquered would preclude it from being used as such since lacquer would fracture and fragment on impact, which is why bokken are never lacquered. Have you considered that this may be a prop for kabuki or some other type of artificial sword? The lacquer suggests it is meant to represent a sheathed sword. Not questioning your judgement here, but if this is indeed a bokken it is a very unusual one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Sinclaire Posted February 5, 2011 Report Share Posted February 5, 2011 Gentlemen As far as I know, the bokken we have today (apart from the plastic tsuba and rubber retainer)are not fundamentally different to those used by the samurai in practice Only last week, I attended a kendo seminar in London that included kata and the Japanese sensei taking it, explained the difference between "bokuto" and "boken", terms which are mainly interchangeable today. The main difference he said, apart from those already mentioned, was that the more modern bokuto encountered today, have tsuba whilst the older boken do not (plastic or any other material). The difference may be readily seen as boken do not have the small ridge between the blade and the tsuka to accomodate a tsuba and tsuba-dome, found on modern bokuto. He also explained that there were certain differences in technique to cater for the lack of a tsuba. Quite interesting, I thought. Clive Sinclaire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estcrh Posted February 5, 2011 Report Share Posted February 5, 2011 Keith, kendo and related sword practices do not always involve contact, ritualized predetermined moves "kata" can be preformed with no armor and no contact. Here is a link to some interesting kata clips including some very old ones. http://www.yorku.ca/kendo/KendoForms.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsugio Kawakami Posted February 5, 2011 Report Share Posted February 5, 2011 I have to agree that the bokuto in the picture was not designed for practice exercises. It has semegane, had sayajiri from the look of it, and seems to have lost a kurigata. I think this was intended as a prop sword or as a weapon/symbol for someone who could not carry. I could see a fancy bokuto having itomaki, fuchigashira, and even a metal tsuba and iron fittings on the "blade"...but a kurigata? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted February 5, 2011 Report Share Posted February 5, 2011 I could see a fancy bokuto having itomaki, fuchigashira, and even a metal tsuba and iron fittings on the "blade"...but a kurigata? Right. It's intended to resemble a sword. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanjuro Posted February 6, 2011 Report Share Posted February 6, 2011 Eric. Thanks for the link which I did find interesting, although since I had the honour of having studied, practiced and finally instructed in Iaido, Iai jutsu, and kenjutsu, for a total of twenty two years I could not find a kata I was not aware of or familiar with. Good videos though :D Kata in practice rather than in a mere demonstration of the moves I think you will find does involve contact in the blocks but not the cuts to the body. Kata done properly is not a slow dance but a simulated choreographed fight conducted at the natural speed of the practitioners. No contact kata would be pointless. Sword to sword or rather bokken to bokken contact causes most of the damage to a bokken. Kendo no kata also involves bokken to bokken contact although being somewhat more ritualised, the contact is comparably lighter, and the bokken are fitted with tsuba. In the practice of kenjutsu the kata are for practice, but when used free form in a contest, believe me there is considerable and often harsh contact. Since no armour is worn, and the use of tsuba is not mandatory, there is also frequent bruising to the practitioner. Incidentally, Although I have never studied modern Kendo I believe it to be a sport rather than a martial art and was not practiced in its present form with shinai prior to 1876, Having been formulated from the old forms of kenjutsu for the police force during the Meiji period. It also did not include bokuto or bokken kata until the early 20th century. Clive will no doubt correct me if I am wrong in this assessment. The old Kendo I believe was called whitesticks (referring to the Bokuto used) and was a full contact form of practice complete with body armour. Your example I think even if it were a bokken, would predate the origins of kendo no kata. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estcrh Posted February 6, 2011 Report Share Posted February 6, 2011 I think its a little simplistic to believe that we know all the training methods and weapons used by the hundreds of various Ryu that have existed in Japan over hundreds of years. I have seen many solid iron truncheons in the shape of a sword (tetsu ken or tekkan) with no saya that had kurigata, I do not think its beyond reason that some wood swords also may have had kurigata for the same reason. I think its just a matter of personal opinion unless you have some actual proof. The few swords I have seen like the one I pictured were referred to as practice or training swords but who can say for sure absolutely? Kabuki sword, or a sword for someone who couldnt wear a real sword, a sword for use were killing someone or spilling blood was frowned upon? Who can say for certain, I am open to hearing any opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baka Gaijin Posted February 6, 2011 Report Share Posted February 6, 2011 Morning all, Screwball theory time: Here's both a Literary & Film observation about the decline of the Samurai fortunes in both Edo & Bakumatsu and the wearing of either solid koshirae or koshirae with tsunagi: The novellist Fujisawa Shûhei 藤沢 周平 describes Bakumatsu decline and how the central character in Tasogare Seibei - たそがれ清兵衛 (later filmed in 2002 as Twighlight Samurai) is forced to sell his Katana blade to pay his debts, and so wears a tsunagi in Koshirae for sake of appearances. Hashimoto Shinobu 橋本 忍 co wrote a stunning indictment of Samurai moral & financial decline for Director Kobayashi Masaaki 小林 正樹 in his 1962 film Seppuku / Hara Kiri 切腹 describing how one of the characters has to use a blunt bamboo blade to commit Seppuku, because that was all he could afford to wear. Somewhere on NMB is a breakdown of the Samurai Stipend system showing the dire straits low stipend Samurai were in. Cheers Malcolm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted February 6, 2011 Report Share Posted February 6, 2011 I have seen many solid iron truncheons in the shape of a sword (tetsu ken or tekkan) with no saya that had kurigata, Pictorial evidences would be highly appreciated. Anyway I suspect these iron truncheons weren't laquered... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanjuro Posted February 6, 2011 Report Share Posted February 6, 2011 Eric. Your simulated sword is of the katana type in a saya. This would date it probably no earlier than the Momoyama period. There is good reason to believe that no ryu had any reason to teach their pupils the use of a sheathed sword in any kata. Mostly because it simply makes no sense and a real sheathed sword would soon lose its saya if impacted upon another similar weapon. Certainly there were some Five thousand ryu known to have existed between the Nara period and the present day and we cannot know what all their kata forms may have been. Since the Late Muromachi period however, the forms of most major ryu have been known. None of those forms are known to have employed the use of a sheathed sword, or to have a sheathed representation of a sword used in the practice of swordsmanship. However, as interesting as this side issue may be, the question we are here in answer to, concerns the forms of bokken etc used in the training and practice of swordsmanship. A bokken or bokuto is a representation of an unsheathed blade. By definition your example appears to be neither a bokken or a bokuto of that type. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baka Gaijin Posted February 6, 2011 Report Share Posted February 6, 2011 Afternoon all http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERhCbPEw ... re=related Yagyu Shingan Ryu, watch from about 4.22 in, techniques with the Kodachi using saya. Cheers Malcolm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanjuro Posted February 6, 2011 Report Share Posted February 6, 2011 Hi Malcolm. Your point is taken. However these are iaido and iaijutsu techniques which invariably employ a sword that is sheathed in the initial stages. Many though not all involve the ultimate drawing of the blade to deliver the telling cut. This type of kata cannot be practiced with a bokken. My remarks thus far have been confined to kata with a bokken in the interests of simplicity if such is possible in such a complex art. In iaido and iai jutsu, all the ryu teach the use of a saya as a blocking aid They also teach the use of the tsuka of a sheathed sword to deliver various types of blows and blocks whilst the sheathed blade is drawn to meet the threat and ultimately deliver a cut. The generality of the statements I have made are in themselves fraught with peril in that even in making them I can immediately think of a number of exceptions to the statement. In the case of Iaido only the first draw and cut is actually iaido. after that it becomes either iaijutsu or in the case of an engagement with drawn swords it is technically kenjutsu. The distinctions become blurred with the complexity of the technique and the number of cuts and parries each may contain. Nothing in swordsmanship is apparently simple (though it actually may in fact be simple), nor is it simply defined. :D Incidentally, I can talk about this subject for days if required. Although perhaps we may already be guilty of highjacking the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted February 6, 2011 Report Share Posted February 6, 2011 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERhCbPEwOIU&feature=related Yagyu Shingan Ryu, watch from about 4.22 in, techniques with the Kodachi using saya. ...and both opponents with saya *and* swords, possibly real. No mock-up, cause you've to perform the action without having the sword leaving the saya. That's the difficulty, difficulty evidently abolished by a mock-up sword. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estcrh Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 If you were to practice defending yourself with a saya would you use a real one or something like the one I pictured? Why risk damaging a real saya when you can use one meant to take abuse. It is easy to twist things around to suit a certain perspective. Perhaps the sword I pictured was meant for use in a manner we do not currently understand or practice in modern times. Kata, bokken and shinai have been used for a very long time, and for anyone to say with any certainty that they know for sure all manner and methods is impossible. I never said that the sword I pictured was a "kendo sword". I still believe the sword I posted is training sword of some type and would be classified as a "bokken". There are modern bokken with saya available why is it so far fetched to believe that there was a use for a bokken in the form of a koshirae. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanjuro Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 Hi Eric To answer your question.. No, I wouldnt use a wooden facsimile or even a bokken. I would be using the saya with a blade sheathed in it. The reason is that all iaido and iaijutsu kata involve an uchi dachi and a shi dachi (Initiating sword and a finishing sword.) The initiating sword is the one drawn to attack. The finishing sword may or may not be drawn as in the encounter shown. In order to practice the kata properly one must play both roles. if you were to use the wooden sword without a blade you would need to change swords all the time to suit the role taken. Iaido and Iaijutsu do not use bokken extensively for practice. Instead they may use iaito, or if the exponents are competent then they use live blades. Saya damage is minimal because there are no harsh contacts in iaido and iaijutsu techniques. Both focus on a massive amount of control over the blade. Even an iaito can inflict a wound, so contact is therefore minimal if at all. Yes there are bokken with saya used mostly in iaijutsu, but the bokken is drawn to make the cut and then deployed against a similar bokken in the techniques that require it. Bokken in saya are quite a recent innovation by the way, although I own a very old bokken from the Momoyama period that was presented to me which has a soft leather saya that partially covers the tsuka also. In this case the saya is to protect the bokken when not in use rather than to be used in practice. Only kenjutsu and kendo no kata exclusively employ a bokken in training, and this is because both these focus on the use of a sword that is already drawn in a combat situation. Whether it be kata or free form combat the saya is not a factor in the techniques used. Quite frankly I would not be relying on a saya for any kind of use during a sword fight. Considering the blade against which the saya would be pitted is capable of shearing into armour, then a mere saya is poor defense indeed and would not offer significant resistance to a detrmined opponent, even as a blocking device. Obviously you wish to believe that what you have is a bokken of some description. Thats fine and you may justify that belief in any way you wish. As I stated at the outset, I am not questioning or challenging that belief, merely stating a more reasonable and realistic alternative classification for what you posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estcrh Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 Obviously you wish to believe that what you have is a bokken of some description. ) Keith, its not a matter of me wishing, I could care less if it turned out to be a kabuki prop, but I was told that this was something and I have seen others labeled the same way so if someone can come up with a description or picture of something similar being used for some other purpose then by all means let me know. Any other possible use is just personal opinion...mine or yours or anyone else until further evidence is presented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanjuro Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 Eric. OK... So since we are merely theorising, here is a slightly more amusing theory for you. This comes from a friend who has some knowledge of the Period, the floating world and its peculiarities. Its not necessarily the first explanation my mind would have leaned toward, but I include it for its entertainment value none the less. During the Edo period at least It was not uncommon for businesses of a certain nature in the shadier quarters and elsewhere to have a wall mounted rack just inside the entrance for patrons to deposit their long swords whilst business was concluded. Upon that rack was sometimes to be found a bokuto or perhaps two such as yours so that even the most inebriated patron would be in no doubt as to where he should leave his long sword. Also to give the impression that the establishment had a patron or two already busy within, even though the place may be otherwise empty. I wonder if what you have maybe one of these brothel bokken (Or should that be a cathouse katana)? :D As I say, not the most likely of explanations but one never knows. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baka Gaijin Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 Morning all, Screwball theory again..... If we mix a cocktail of Occam's Razor with a hint of Marcus Aurelius and add a dash of Semantics. Q: What does the object look like? A: A Sword. Q: What is the chief material it is made of? A: Wood. Q: How would you describe it simply? A: A wooden Sword. Now put that into Japanese and we have Bokken (木剣, bok(u), "wood", and ken, "sword" /Bokutō 木刀. Diehard Martial Arts Movie fans will remember the cyber controversy caused in the 2003 movie "Last Samurai" when the character of Ujio played by Sanada Hiroyuki 真田 広之 cried "Katana Osae!" to Bokuto weilding Tom Cruise. :lol: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTXGRtAQ ... re=related Cheers Malcolm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 @ Malcom. Effectively, the material doesn't fix the use. So is a wooden sword either it is meant to be a teatrical replica or a tool for training. The difference is into details. It is easy to twist things around to suit a certain perspective. I totally agree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baka Gaijin Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 Good morning Carlo: The devil is always in the details :lol: Cheers Malcolm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estcrh Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 I wonder if what you have maybe one of these brothel bokken (Or should that be a cathouse katana)? :D Actually an interesting idea. By the way, will we be seeing a picture of the bokken you own since this is exactly what the thread is about. (I own a very old bokken from the Momoyama period that was presented to me which has a soft leather saya that partially covers the tsuka also.) I for one would like to see it, as you probably know pictures of old bokken are hard to find online. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estcrh Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 It is easy to twist things around to suit a certain perspective. I totally agree with you. I thought you would agree with me on this one thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 I thought you would agree with me on this one thing. It has been so easy... The devil is always in the details :lol: Indeed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanjuro Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 will we be seeing a picture of the bokken you own since this is exactly what the thread is about. I'll see what I can do to oblige. :DThere are no pics of it on file in the computer so I should take a few, and the darn thing is sitting on a katanakake just inside my front door (No.... I dont live in that kind of establishment). The location is merely coincidence. I'll retrieve my camera from an errant son and shoot a few pics. Give me a day or two. Its nothing very special to look at apart from the writing on it which says katsu jin no ken on one side, and satsu jin no ken on the other. It also has a strange butt to the tsuka section, like a warabite to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 II have seen many solid iron truncheons in the shape of a sword (tetsu ken or tekkan) with no saya that had kurigata, In the meantime we're still waiting to see the above ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estcrh Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 Speaking of kabuki props...here is an interesting article. “The difference between a Western play and kabuki is that the props in kabuki are very close to the real objects,” "Tanaka slides open a cupboard door inside the storehouse and pulls out a samurai sword. “You must have more than a hundred swords here?” I ask. Tanaka smiles at my question, we have thousands.” http://www.tonymcnicol.com/blog/archive ... iprops.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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