Hypothetical Nihonto Values

[Hokke]

We all know that value of nihonto is, by in large, based on the smith who forged it, the time period when it was forged and the condition of it today. But what if there were another factor introduced? Hypothetically, if it were a custom of samurai to mark the nakago every time a life was taken with his sword, and lets assume in a perfect world these were legitimate and marked honestly, how do you think it would affect the value of those blades today? Blades with recorded cutting tests certainly fetch a premium in the market, but is that because these tests were rare, or because of peoples fascination with documented proof of blade to skin contact? 

Nihonto made from the handful of "masters" will always be rare and valuable because of their beauty and the skill in their construction. But it seems to me that if a mumei blade from the nanbokucho were found with a dozen "marks" confirming kills, even a relatively unremarkable blade would fetch a premium just based on the macabre factor. 

Last question is the bugger........how does everyone here "think" they would feel about actually owning these blades? For the market as a whole, would there perceived bad juju, or would availability of these blades make nihonto more popular in today's society? 

 

[Mark S.]

No way to ‘prove’ the kills.  Another form of gimei?… or inflated prestige/valuation?

 

[John C]

Could make a difference if proven to be tied to a specific battle. And more so if tied to a specific samurai in that battle. An equivalent would be a colt 6 shooter vs the same gun owned by Billy the Kid with notches. But it's all about the proof, so not likely to happen.

 

John C.

[Alex A]

People are always looking for provenance, anything that addss a bit of real history to an object

 

If such marks were used then its my guess they would increase value as there are many people willing to believe whether provable or not.

 

You see some swords with inscriptions that are either dubious or impossible to authenticate with owners that believe are genuine.

 

From time to time see this scenario and think of them as “head in the sand” owners, just a thought that arises.

 

Oh, and there are definitely people that will collect swords just because they have been used to cut through people, rather than the main interest being the sword itself.

 

Thats the reality of people.

[Natichu]

Assuming the truth of your premises, that is the marks are known to be both genuine and an honest accounting, I would think they would significantly add to value. While some might be put off by them, I think among those predisposed to be interested in historical weapons they would be a minority. 

[Hokke]

I am very much of the same mindset in that I believe it would add to the selling price of any weapon. But remember gents, this is a hypothetical, since these marks dont actually exist and part of this hypothetical is that the markings would be a true accounting of the kill record, even though in reality this is impossible. The question isnt whether or not the markings are genuine, but rather, whether or not each of you would pay a premium to own one, assuming the consensus is correct and it would add value. 

There are two sides to this: As Alex mentioned there will always be people drawn to the idea of something that caused death, regardless of what it is and then there are those who would be drawn to the history of it, especially as John said, if it could be tied to a specific battle or to the death of a specific historical person. 

So again, the real question here is, would you personally choose to own this kind of nihonto. 

[Marcin]

46 minutes ago, Hokke said:

I am very much of the same mindset in that I believe it would add to the selling price of any weapon. But remember gents, this is a hypothetical, since these marks dont actually exist and part of this hypothetical is that the markings would be a true accounting of the kill record, even though in reality this is impossible. The question isnt whether or not the markings are genuine, but rather, whether or not each of you would pay a premium to own one, assuming the consensus is correct and it would add value. 

There are two sides to this: As Alex mentioned there will always be people drawn to the idea of something that caused death, regardless of what it is and then there are those who would be drawn to the history of it, especially as John said, if it could be tied to a specific battle or to the death of a specific historical person. 

So again, the real question here is, would you personally choose to own this kind of nihonto. 

You buying weapon or piece of art? If You want a weapon go for ww2 blades with fat-rust and chips.

I don't need additional proof that blade could kill someone. Even better if blade is mint- no possible structural microcracks.

Saidan-mei? Oh so cool blade can cut through dead body.

 

[Hokke]

31 minutes ago, Rawa said:

You buying weapon or piece of art? If You want a weapon go for ww2 blades with fat-rust and chips.

I don't need additional proof that blade could kill someone. Even better if blade is mint- no possible structural microcracks.

Saidan-mei? Oh so cool blade can cut through dead body.

 

So then……No, you wouldn’t buy such a blade. Fair enough

That said, if the blade is never going to be used as a weapon, only art, why would care if there were microcracks? Just curious

[Marcin]

Just now, Hokke said:

So then……No, you wouldn’t buy such a blade. Fair enough

That said, if the blade is never going to be used as a weapon, only art, why would care if there were microcracks? Just curious

It's all about preservation. You would rather keep nanbokucho blade with hagire or kirikomi or mint?

I don't see more value in visible flaws. Blade with atribution is enough.

Monkeys were killing other monkeys with sticks or stones. Blade is complex enough to believe it is capable of killing :D especially made in days when killing with a sword was a fashion.

Bad smiths just went extinct.

On the margin - usage of blades as weapons made some confusion in United Kingdom lately. 

 

[Hokke]

16 minutes ago, Rawa said:

It's all about preservation. You would rather keep nanbokucho blade with hagire or kirikomi or mint?

I don't see more value in visible flaws. Blade with atribution is enough.

 

 

Yes, but this is assuming that blades would show flaws, which isn’t necessarily the case. Taking a head, slashing an appendage or thrusting through soft tissue may cause blemishes easily sorted with a polish. 

[Hokke]

With Rawa’s post in mind……..

We can all agree that early koto nihonto were primarily purpose built for war, not beauty. Beauty was secondary unless specifically ordered as such by the emperor or other high ranking samurai. 
So, here’s the second hypothetical:

You have two mumei blades from the same school, same time period. Let’s say Hokke, nanbokucho. Both of them are currently in excellent condition.
One blade shows beauty and displays careful forging specific for hataraki, BUT, has none of the “markings” postulated in my first post. 
The second blade is more subdued and shows some activities but is mostly tight and unremarkable, BUT, it has six of the “markings” alluded to in my first post. 
Which has more value in the market of today? The beauty of the blade in its construction, or a blade that has seen war and remains in excellent condition, proof of its superior construction. Yes, I understand the blade itself is only half the equation, and the skill of the samurai would matter, but this discussion is considering all things equal. 
 

On a side note, it’s interesting that most have not dared to answer the question of ownership. Is this because by saying you would like to own a blade known to have taken a life, that it is somehow perceived as a negative reflection on your character?

[Alex A]

2 hours ago, Hokke said:

 

So again, the real question here is, would you personally choose to own this kind of nihonto. 

 

No. Though i find the history interesting.

 

To be honest, you dont know what you own. Meaning that the sword you own could have killed or the owner been killed.

 

Someone once said on a antique gun site, with reference to a civil war Colt pistols. If some owners truly knew the history and deaths linked to their guns then they would likely be shocked.

 

May sound a bit hypocritical when i say something like "would love to own a gun that was at waterloo" (which sometimes do) but wouldn't want to knowingly own something that killed someone, would probably give me the creeps on a dark night lol.

 

With swords, they are up close and personal, defo not for me.

[Hoshi]

Dear Hokke, 

 

The topic is a bit more nuanced that throwing a "yes +xx% price per marks" but much of this is due to the framing. 

 

There something better out there that captures the essence of your question in a period-accurate way and reframes it: A recorded kiritsuke mei inscribed on the nakago that allude to battle circumstances and defeating certain prized foes and nemesis. Once such blade, a Tokuju Osafune Motoshige, had the name of the son of a Daimyo it slayed inscribed on the tang along with who performed the deed during the Sengoku Jidai. The blade was retired subsequently and kept as a family treasure celebrating the deed. The inscription is ancient, and the act recorded in the archives of the family. 

 

Does this increase its value? Of course, in front of the right buyer. I would go as far as personally to consider chasing only this specific Motoshige if I wanted to make an exception for a mumei motoshige blade (there are enough signed ones - 56 to be precise - to target signed). 

 

 

In the NBHTK setsumei: In addition, this piece preserves a carved inscription (kiritsuke-mei) stating that on the 13th day of the 6th month of Eishō 18 (1521), Hayashi Motokatsu killed Kageharu, the youngest son of Asakura Sadakage of Echizen. 

 

However: Would I be interested in generic but verifiable "kill notches" without further context, per se? Not at all, to the contrary.

 

There is little historical and provenance value in my eyes. For the same reason, Edo period cutting tests are also not my cup of tea. 

 

Why? Some introspection: perhaps because war is necessary, high-stakes, and epic in the human story arch, but death itself is a tragic byproduct. Remove the battle, the stakes, the heroes and the villains - and leave only death as a memory - well - it does not appeals to my personal sense of life aesthetics. 

 

The Motoshige with kiritsuke mei recounts the story of defeating a family nemesis. This fits in the arc of the human epic and adds an enchanting element. 

 

More generally, is provenance valuable? It can be everything - take the following provenance extreme case: A gimei Kotetsu blade belonging to one of the famous Shinsengumi with kirikomi with ironclad provenance documentation. This blade is likely to be extremely valuable and command in the mid-to-high six figure results at auction. The price is solely driven by the provenance in this case.

 

Famous historical figures and Daimyo collections, romantic Bakumatsu ronin stories, all of these hold a special place of interest to many collectors and have market effects, and no wonders - these are genuine moments of history that create enchantment in the experience of collecting and studying history. 

 

Long live epic stories, 

 

Hoshi

 

[Mark S.]

Would I personally own a blade with the hypothetical markings?  Yes. 
 

How much does it add to the value?  I would guess it would add about as much as test cutting notations do.  Some will collect and pay more for such items.  Some will not.  I simply believe it is a part of the blades history.  

[Hokke]

23 minutes ago, Alex A said:

 

No. Though i find the history interesting.

 

To be honest, you dont know what you own. Meaning that the sword you own could have killed or the owner been killed.

Very true, thank you for your candid reply. 

[Hokke]

21 minutes ago, Hoshi said:

Dear Hokke, 

 

The topic is a bit more nuanced that throwing a "yes +xx% price per marks" but much of this is due to the framing. 

 

There something better out there that captures the essence of your question in a period-accurate way and reframes it: A recorded kiritsuke mei inscribed on the nakago that allude to battle circumstances and defeating certain prized foes and nemesis. Once such blade, a Tokuju Osafune Motoshige, had the name of the son of a Daimyo it slayed inscribed on the tang along with who performed the deed during the Sengoku Jidai. The blade was retired subsequently and kept as a family treasure celebrating the deed. The inscription is ancient, and the act recorded in the archives of the family. 

 

Does this increase its value? Of course, in front of the right buyer. I would go as far as personally to consider chasing only this specific Motoshige if I wanted to make an exception for a mumei motoshige blade (there are enough signed ones - 56 to be precise - to target signed). 

 

 

In the NBHTK setsumei: In addition, this piece preserves a carved inscription (kiritsuke-mei) stating that on the 13th day of the 6th month of Eishō 18 (1521), Hayashi Motokatsu killed Kageharu, the youngest son of Asakura Sadakage of Echizen. 

 

However: Would I be interested in generic but verifiable "kill notches" without further context, per se? Not at all, to the contrary.

 

There is little historical and provenance value in my eyes. For the same reason, Edo period cutting tests are also not my cup of tea. 

 

Why? Some introspection: perhaps because war is necessary, high-stakes, and epic in the human story arch, but death itself is a tragic byproduct. Remove the battle, the stakes, the heroes and the villains - and leave only death as a memory - well - it does not appeals to my personal sense of life aesthetics. 

 

The Motoshige with kiritsuke mei recounts the story of defeating a family nemesis. This fits in the arc of the human epic and adds an enchanting element. 

 

More generally, is provenance valuable? It can be everything - take the following provenance extreme case: A gimei Kotetsu blade belonging to one of the famous Shinsengumi with kirikomi with ironclad provenance documentation. This blade is likely to be extremely valuable and command in the mid-to-high six figure results at auction. The price is solely driven by the provenance in this case.

 

Famous historical figures and Daimyo collections, romantic Bakumatsu ronin stories, all of these hold a special place of interest to many collectors and have market effects, and no wonders - these are genuine moments of history that create enchantment in the experience of collecting and studying history. 

 

Long live epic stories, 

 

Hoshi

 

Absolutely excellent Hoshi, thank you for taking the time to post it.

[Hokke]

9 minutes ago, Mark S. said:

Would I personally own a blade with the hypothetical markings?  Yes. 
 

How much does it add to the value?  I would guess it would add about as much as test cutting notations do.  Some will collect and pay more for such items.  Some will not.  I simply believe it is a part of the blades history.  

Agreed, the amount of “value” added would be very subjective and considerate of a LOT of factors. Like you however, I would have zero issue owning one these blades, but, I wouldn’t be willing to pay a crazy premium for it. At the end of the day it would still boil down to price and condition for me.

[Toki]

Very interesting question and a lot has been said already!

Another point we should not forget is the availability of such hypothetical inscriptions/marks. If everyone from Ashigaru to high ranking Samurai marked their blades, there would be an abundance of such and therefore no real reason to charge a premium. The only exception for this would probably be if the blade was wielded by someone  important.

 

32 minutes ago, Hokke said:

On a side note, it’s interesting that most have not dared to answer the question of ownership. Is this because by saying you would like to own a blade known to have taken a life, that it is somehow perceived as a negative reflection on your character?

That is a hard decision. If the blade is appealing to me outside of those marks, I would not be bothered by them I think. However seeking out blades for their marks would not be my first choice. You never know what kind of action your blade has seen in its life, with any Nihonto. Especially those shortened to due damage (and not Edo regulations) are prime candidates to have seen combat. 

Historically, such marks would be interesting, especially if they can be linked to certain events/battles, like the one Hoshi posted. It would help to trace the journey of a blade better, which is very interesting to me personally. So it would be a nice bonus, but not a requirement for me.

[jawob]

I really like Hoshi's comment really takes this topic to a new level. 

 

Personally, I apply a sort of "Threefold Rule". I don't think long term I would be comfortable knowing the exact circumstances of a blades violent past, which could be heroics on the battlefield or killing civilians for the hell of it. Same goes for cutting test. I can appreciate the context but not something I want in the house.

[Matsunoki]

Blades do not kill people.

People kill people.

The blade is just an inanimate tool albeit it of varying quality or value or age. 

To me personally such hypothetical marks would be irrelevant if unproved. 
Who owned the blade (if substantiated) is a whole different ballgame……imo who owned it is the provenance worth considering.

[atm]

I would not have a problem owning such a hypothetical sword. I already own swords that, based on their age, could have been used to kill but lack the hypothetical bodycount markings to document that history. I also own WWII German and Japanese firearms that were brought back by American GIs that were very likely used to kill Americans. I respect that this would really bother some people, and they would not want to own or even be around such items. I differentiate between the tool and the person using the tool, so I do not view these items as inherently bad or evil. And my interest in them is based on history, artistry, and technology instead of any macabre interest.

 

That said, I would be less inclined to own a sword (or other weapon) that derives its primary value or interest from the macabre. For example, I would not want to own a test cut sword solely because it is a test cut sword. It would first have to be a sword I would appreciate if it did not have saidan mei. The saidan mei is still valuable to me--albeit secondary value--because it provides additional historical interest. The same goes for kirikomi or Hokke's hypothetical bodycount markings--they provide value to me that is secondary to the craftsmanship of the sword.

[Lewis B]

3 hours ago, Hoshi said:

Dear Hokke, 

 

The topic is a bit more nuanced that throwing a "yes +xx% price per marks" but much of this is due to the framing. 

 

There something better out there that captures the essence of your question in a period-accurate way and reframes it: A recorded kiritsuke mei inscribed on the nakago that allude to battle circumstances and defeating certain prized foes and nemesis. Once such blade, a Tokuju Osafune Motoshige, had the name of the son of a Daimyo it slayed inscribed on the tang along with who performed the deed during the Sengoku Jidai. The blade was retired subsequently and kept as a family treasure celebrating the deed. The inscription is ancient, and the act recorded in the archives of the family. 

 

Does this increase its value? Of course, in front of the right buyer. I would go as far as personally to consider chasing only this specific Motoshige if I wanted to make an exception for a mumei motoshige blade (there are enough signed ones - 56 to be precise - to target signed). 

 

 

In the NBHTK setsumei: In addition, this piece preserves a carved inscription (kiritsuke-mei) stating that on the 13th day of the 6th month of Eishō 18 (1521), Hayashi Motokatsu killed Kageharu, the youngest son of Asakura Sadakage of Echizen. 

 

However: Would I be interested in generic but verifiable "kill notches" without further context, per se? Not at all, to the contrary.

 

There is little historical and provenance value in my eyes. For the same reason, Edo period cutting tests are also not my cup of tea. 

 

Why? Some introspection: perhaps because war is necessary, high-stakes, and epic in the human story arch, but death itself is a tragic byproduct. Remove the battle, the stakes, the heroes and the villains - and leave only death as a memory - well - it does not appeals to my personal sense of life aesthetics. 

 

The Motoshige with kiritsuke mei recounts the story of defeating a family nemesis. This fits in the arc of the human epic and adds an enchanting element. 

 

More generally, is provenance valuable? It can be everything - take the following provenance extreme case: A gimei Kotetsu blade belonging to one of the famous Shinsengumi with kirikomi with ironclad provenance documentation. This blade is likely to be extremely valuable and command in the mid-to-high six figure results at auction. The price is solely driven by the provenance in this case.

 

Famous historical figures and Daimyo collections, romantic Bakumatsu ronin stories, all of these hold a special place of interest to many collectors and have market effects, and no wonders - these are genuine moments of history that create enchantment in the experience of collecting and studying history. 

 

Long live epic stories, 

 

Hoshi

 

Reminds me of this Tametsugu that was put on sale last year. I agree I also prefer a historical context to the carnage and annihilation attached to a particular blade.

 

Kiritsuke-mei

At the summer battle at Osaka Castle in Sesshu province Mizawa Magozaemon no jo "Took a head in a fierce battle".

Edited May 12 by Lewis B

[Hokke]

I’d like to touch on the build quality point. Again, hypothetically, the hypothetical marks ARE legitimate, no chance of them being otherwise; wouldn’t a blade with the most marks carry a higher value if it were in excellent or remarkable condition? This has nothing to do with cutting people down,  but rather testament to how well the blade held up in the process. Saidan-mei is typically only done once under optimal conditions, but a blade that he’s been through the hell of war that shows little to no evidence, seems to me, quite desirable. 
 

[Matsunoki]

13 minutes ago, Hokke said:

This has nothing to do with cutting people down,  but rather testament to how well the blade held up in the process

Possibly, but more likely testament to the skill of the combatant wielding it. The survival of a blade lies in not hitting anything that would damage the blade.

I would suggest that just about any blade from any age of any quality would suffer damage if whacked hard into a substantially constructed piece of iron defence. 
“Taking a head” means nothing……he could have been dead already, or disabled slumped on the battlefield……stories and legends are great but that’s all they are.

Yes I know, I’m a sceptic (or is it realist?🙂)

[Cola]

Would you value a blade that was used to execute prisoners during WWII? I sure don't.

I can appreciate weapons of war used to wage war, but I don't like tools used for war crimes.

Obviously with old swords, you never know, which may be for the better; war crimes weren't invented in the 20th century. 

[jawob]

Maybe a dumb question: Would a hypothetical samurai make a display of his kills or would this be seen as crass and boastfull?

[Hokke]

3 hours ago, jawob said:

Maybe a dumb question: Would a hypothetical samurai make a display of his kills or would this be seen as crass and boastfull?

My gut says perhaps in the moment of a kill there may be a outward display of emotion based on the adrenaline rush, but after the battle is over, I’d like to think that boasting was at a minimum. Putting a blade into someone in melee while lookin them in the eye is a lot different than hitting them with a projectile at distance, or bombing them with a drone. I have to imagine that surviving a battle would instill the feeling of being very lucky and thus likely would minimize any display of superiority. I of course could be completely wrong, but until we can teleport samurai from the past to the present, we will never truly know. 

[Mark S.]

2 hours ago, Hokke said:

I’d like to think that boasting was at a minimum. 
 

Taking / displaying heads is well documented. 

[Rivkin]

I would start with "light" version which is kirikomi... for me definitely plus, but for some plus only if documented, connected to important historical figure etc..

Kill marks - there are plenty of rifles with notches, and its cool, but without documentation I personally don't pay extra just because its notched. But definitely not demerit.

If there would be a legitimate "notching" on swords, yes I would consider those a premier grade collectibles. And yes, I would expect a lot of those would be upper-mid tier working blades like early Yamato rather than Ichimonji... Not because Ichimonji is unsuitable for battle, but its premium is connected with aesthetics rather than function, and it was more or less the same way 700 years ago.

I sold long ago the sword I used for duels and do not have particular attachment to blades used for executions... but owning something with five notches would be great.

 

[Robert S]

I don't think I would be completely adverse to owning a nihonto with such marks on it... but I also don't think it would increase the value for me.  I own a world war one Lee Enfield with notches on it which, if not genuine, appear to have been made within the same period, given the wear and patina.  They don't make me uneasy... but they also aren't why I own the gun.