Did suya shoten mark changed during time?

[nightkid]

I found this photo of a Suya Shoten mark on the Warrelics forum. (If there is any issue with using a photo from another site, please let me know and I will delete it. I apologize in advance.)

I’m trying to understand a specific situation. This picture shows a crude, low-quality mark on a high-quality naval dirk. In my opinion, the dirk is a high-end piece because it features a sharkskin saya and elaborate carvings.

However, I have also seen the Suya Shoten mark in great quality on high-end Meiji 1st style naval dirks.

Why is this phenomenon happening? Is it possible that Suya Shoten had many different factory lines and didn’t manage the quality of the markings across all of them equally? Or was there a specific reason for this change in marking quality over time?

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Hi Kim!

I found Nick Komiya's write-up on Suya Shoten where he posted this photo at the beginning - The Untold Story of Suya Shoten; Warrelics.  I don't know why he chose this particular stamp, and I wish he had gone into the other variations. 

 

I have a few in my files, and after reviewing, I think you are right that they changed their stamping over time.  Of course, it could be as you suggest that there were seperate shops for different products, as they made quite a few things.

 

Here is what I have that seems to suggest a time progression:

On an old kyugunto

 

On a kyugunto made for the Chinese

 

As seen on most gunto

 

On an RS (Type 3/100/etc) tsuba

[Conway S]

2 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

On a kyugunto made for the Chinese

@Bruce Pennington Do you have any more photos of this one? Or a link? 

[Bruce Pennington]

6 hours ago, Conway S said:

Do you have any more photos of this one?

Con,

I didn't note the source (I'm better about that now, but for years, I only saved photos), but here are some more shots:

[nightkid]

13 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Hi Kim!

I found Nick Komiya's write-up on Suya Shoten where he posted this photo at the beginning - The Untold Story of Suya Shoten; Warrelics.  I don't know why he chose this particular stamp, and I wish he had gone into the other variations. 

 

I have a few in my files, and after reviewing, I think you are right that they changed their stamping over time.  Of course, it could be as you suggest that there were seperate shops for different products, as they made quite a few things.

 

Here is what I have that seems to suggest a time progression:

On an old kyugunto

 

On a kyugunto made for the Chinese

 

As seen on most gunto

 

On an RS (Type 3/100/etc) tsuba

Thank you, sir. The Chinese mark you mentioned is very interesting. The depth and style of the strike seem very similar to the crude mark I found. It could be a significant clue.

[Conway S]

Here’s another Kanji/Hanzi corporate logo on a Qing Dynasty Chinese sword (Note the inspector’s mark):

 

 

[Conway S]

And another example on a Japanese Type 19 (from Sohei Swords listing):

 

 

I would guess that the hanzi was used prior to the “harp” or “Suya Tokyo” logos.

[Conway S]

And finally, the harp logo on a General’s grade Type 19:

 

 

 

 

I personally don’t see a correlation between the quality of the corporate logo and the overall quality of the sword, but that’s just my assessment as someone who primarily collects dress swords. 

[nightkid]

21 hours ago, Conway S said:

And finally, the harp logo on a General’s grade Type 19:

 

 

 

 

I personally don’t see a correlation between the quality of the corporate logo and the overall quality of the sword, but that’s just my assessment as someone who primarily collects dress swords. 

I apologize for the late response. First of all, thank you for sharing such valuable materials. Looking at the photos provided by others above, I wondered if the lack of mark quality was due to a different production line or simply a lack of engraving skill. However, after seeing the General’s sword you shared, I realize that the quality of the mark and the level of craftsmanship should be viewed separately. I am also considering whether the mark on the Meiji-era tsuba I brought was engraved so clearly because it was produced in collaboration with a naval arsenal. Additionally, it was great to see the history and evolution of Suya Shoten. Thank you for your help.

[Conway S]

@nightkid I think the guard you posted is from the 1930s. At least, that’s when you see other naval anchor stamps appearing. The "anchor in sakura” stamp’s association is still unconfirmed, I believe. If you look in the pinned arsenal stamps thread, and Bruce’s stamp document in the downloads, you will see that stamp appears on Type 97 Kai Gunto fittings. 

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

26 minutes ago, Conway S said:

The "anchor in sakura” stamp’s association is still unconfirmed

Found on dirks, kaigunto fittings, and naval kyugunto fittings.  Richard Fuller lumped it together with the circled anchor calling them both "Toyokawa Navy Arsenal" stamps.  My current theory is that it was a Naval inspector stamp for fittings or finished products.  Suya made swords for both army and navy, so we might be seeing a naval inspector sampling and approving the items made for them.