Working on a Juyo submission

[Hoshi]

Hi, 

 

I can chime in. 

 

Swords from the Golden Age are indeed much more likely to pass Juyo/TJ. 

 

There can indeed be some back and forth between Enju and Awataguchi, but it is exceedingly rare. This has happened only twice on 220+ Juyo Enju blades. 

 

In this day and age, Awataguchi Yoshimasa is not a rational attribution, there is no extant tradition of attributing blades to this smith, and he is absent from the record. As such, the attribution needs to be taken into a allegorical Japanese context of someone marketing the blade is "almost as good as Awataguchi". The Kiwame that can shift the NBHTK's opinion are restricted to old judges (Hon'ami Kuchu, Kojo, up to Koyu to some degree), and of course Honma and Tanobe. The kitae of your sword, while beautiful and full of chickei, is not commensurate with Awataguchi. 

 

The policy on Juyo today has a very high bar, with pass rates of 7-8%, and everyone sending their best pieces. Ask yourself if this particular sword sits into the elite ranks of Enju. I cannot tell from the picture, but there are factors that help which you can ascertain for yourself: wide motohaba (2.9cm+), good size (70cm+). Factors that are harder to appreciate without experience is the Niku (e.g., try to feel if the yokote is slightly curvilinear), Bright and clear habuchi (for this you need to see maybe a hundred swords with textbook bright and clear habuchi to get a feel for it), and a healthy boshi (this is harder than it seems as polisher needlework can be difficult to differentiate from a genuine boshi). 

 

In the 70's it was much easier to pass Juyo, and your sword is probably superior to certain Juyo blades attributed to Enju during these liberal times. Take solace in this. Today the situation is different as Juyo is so much harder to achieve. My appraisal is that for an Enju blade to pass in this day and age, it would need to be in great health, and probably signed or sufficiently differentiated to be attributed to a specific master of the school - I would not go to through the trouble myself otherwise. There are of course freak occurrences and head-scratcher, but It doesn't make for rational bets. 

 

Today, the competition for the promising TH blades is very high, and they are unlikely to be acquired by westerners shopping online. In the rare occasions when these blades are presented online because a dealer needs cashflow and his retinue of preferred clients chatting on LINE are not taking the bait, they will be priced at 2/3+ of the way to Juyo and hence discarded as "too expensive for TH" compared to the ones at 1/3 the price with the same attribution from another dealer. The later has, of course, no chance of Juyo and above, and big problems. But to the collectors who have little to no exposure to great blades, the price-to-paper ratio is most often the deciding factor. The day one sends a batch of "good deal TH" to Juyo will be the day of a brutal reality check. Ignorance is bliss, in a way.

 

At the end of the day, Juyo or not Juyo, the blade is the same. Remember that one can build a very sensible and enjoyable collection that tells an interesting story without a single Juyo blade. 

 

Hope this helps, 

 

Hoshi

 

Edited November 15 by Hoshi

[Gakusee]

1 hour ago, Hoshi said:

Hi, 

 

I can chime in. 

 

Swords from the Golden Age are indeed much more likely to pass Juyo/TJ. 

 

There can indeed be some back and forth between Enju and Awataguchi, but it is exceedingly rare. This has happened only twice on 220+ Juyo Enju blades. 

 

In this day and age, Awataguchi Yoshimasa is not a rational attribution, there is no extant tradition of attributing blades to this smith, and he is absent from the record. As such, the attribution needs to be taken into a allegorical Japanese context of someone marketing the blade is "almost as good as Awataguchi". The Kiwame that can shift the NBHTK's opinion are restricted to old judges (Hon'ami Kuchu, Kojo, up to Koyu to some degree), and of course Honma and Tanobe. The kitae of your sword, while beautiful and full of chickei, is not commensurate with Awataguchi. 

 

The policy on Juyo today has a very high bar, with pass rates of 7-8%, and everyone sending their best pieces. Ask yourself if this particular sword sits into the elite ranks of Enju. I cannot tell from the picture, but there are factors that help which you can ascertain for yourself: wide motohaba (2.9cm+), good size (70cm+). Factors that are harder to appreciate without experience is the Niku (e.g., try to feel if the yokote is slightly curvilinear), Bright and clear habuchi (for this you need to see maybe a hundred swords with textbook bright and clear habuchi to get a feel for it), and a healthy boshi (this is harder than it seems as polisher needlework can be difficult to differentiate from a genuine boshi). 

 

In the 70's it was much easier to pass Juyo, and your sword is probably superior to certain Juyo blades attributed to Enju during these liberal times. Take solace in this. Today the situation is different as Juyo is so much harder to achieve. My appraisal is that for an Enju blade to pass in this day and age, it would need to be in great health, and probably signed or sufficiently differentiated to be attributed to a specific master of the school - I would not go to through the trouble myself otherwise. There are of course freak occurrences and head-scratcher, but It doesn't make for rational bets. 

 

Today, the competition for the promising TH blades is very high, and they are unlikely to be acquired by westerners shopping online. In the rare occasions when these blades are presented online because a dealer needs cashflow and his retinue of preferred clients chatting on LINE are not taking the bait, they will be priced at 2/3+ of the way to Juyo and hence discarded as "too expensive for TH" compared to the ones at 1/3 the price with the same attribution from another dealer. The later has, of course, no chance of Juyo and above, and big problems. But to the collectors who have little to no exposure to great blades, the price-to-paper ratio is most often the deciding factor. The day one sends a batch of "good deal TH" to Juyo will be the day of a brutal reality check. Ignorance is bliss, in a way.

 

At the end of the day, Juyo or not Juyo, the blade is the same. Remember that one can build a very sensible and enjoyable collection that tells an interesting story without a single Juyo blade. 

 

Hope this helps, 

 

Hoshi

 

Very well articulated. 
 

A couple of brief thoughts on the actual blade. Admittedly I can see very little of the actual hamon and habuchi (might be just my eyesight) but it has tight enough itame/ko-itame jihada to be a fairly good sword. For Awataguchi, again caveated on the limitations above,  you need a somewhat different hamon to what little I can see in the one small photo - one with some more konie based activity (eg some small ashi or other niesuji, slightly deeper and richer nioiguchi). Also, look at the boshi (Eg omaru? komaru? yakitsume or not, etc) and finally the activities immediately above the hamon. 

Awataguchi is a tall order of quality attribution…

 

Having said that, your question was which one to submit. Probably the Enju will have higher chances all else being equal, relatively speaking, and not in absolute terms of certainty.

[Jussi Ekholm]

While maybe not as sexy as Jūyō submission I would re-try the Tokubetsu Hozon first even if intending to send the sword in for Jūyō. Mumei swords can always get different attributions depending on the shinsa, so I would think that is always worth a try. I know if I would be living in Japan I would definately try to buy and resend some mumei swords in hopes of scoring big attribution. Unfortunately for us outside Japan it is way more complicated to send the sword in.

 

Of course there is always the human bias mixed in, as I probably wouldn't re-send a very good mumei attribution because the new one might be a lot worse. 

[Sukaira]

5 hours ago, Jussi Ekholm said:

While maybe not as sexy as Jūyō submission I would re-try the Tokubetsu Hozon first even if intending to send the sword in for Jūyō. Mumei swords can always get different attributions depending on the shinsa, so I would think that is always worth a try. I know if I would be living in Japan I would definately try to buy and resend some mumei swords in hopes of scoring big attribution. Unfortunately for us outside Japan it is way more complicated to send the sword in.

 

Of course there is always the human bias mixed in, as I probably wouldn't re-send a very good mumei attribution because the new one might be a lot worse. 

That's interesting, I had never considered sending it in for the same grade.

 

Actually, the other day I was thinking about Juyo in general and it seems like it is really more useful (at least partially) for mumei blades in particular. Like what is the real point of putting an ubu, pristine, signed and dated Tadayoshi 3 or something similar though the entire ladder? After Hozon, you already know what it is, it's been verified and I can't imagine the market doesn't understand what the value would be as is. Why would you need NBTHK Juyo shinsa to tell you your ubu, pristine, signed and dated Tadayoshi 3 is an ubu, pristine, signed and dated Tadayoshi 3? . I know there is some prestige and nuance to that, but as a whole, Juyo shinsa seems way. more useful for mumei blades, where actual attribution and research needs to go into identifying and preserving mystery blades.

[Sukaira]

12 hours ago, Hoshi said:

Hi, 

 

I can chime in. 

 

Swords from the Golden Age are indeed much more likely to pass Juyo/TJ. 

 

There can indeed be some back and forth between Enju and Awataguchi, but it is exceedingly rare. This has happened only twice on 220+ Juyo Enju blades. 

 

In this day and age, Awataguchi Yoshimasa is not a rational attribution, there is no extant tradition of attributing blades to this smith, and he is absent from the record. As such, the attribution needs to be taken into a allegorical Japanese context of someone marketing the blade is "almost as good as Awataguchi". The Kiwame that can shift the NBHTK's opinion are restricted to old judges (Hon'ami Kuchu, Kojo, up to Koyu to some degree), and of course Honma and Tanobe. The kitae of your sword, while beautiful and full of chickei, is not commensurate with Awataguchi. 

 

The policy on Juyo today has a very high bar, with pass rates of 7-8%, and everyone sending their best pieces. Ask yourself if this particular sword sits into the elite ranks of Enju. I cannot tell from the picture, but there are factors that help which you can ascertain for yourself: wide motohaba (2.9cm+), good size (70cm+). Factors that are harder to appreciate without experience is the Niku (e.g., try to feel if the yokote is slightly curvilinear), Bright and clear habuchi (for this you need to see maybe a hundred swords with textbook bright and clear habuchi to get a feel for it), and a healthy boshi (this is harder than it seems as polisher needlework can be difficult to differentiate from a genuine boshi). 

 

In the 70's it was much easier to pass Juyo, and your sword is probably superior to certain Juyo blades attributed to Enju during these liberal times. Take solace in this. Today the situation is different as Juyo is so much harder to achieve. My appraisal is that for an Enju blade to pass in this day and age, it would need to be in great health, and probably signed or sufficiently differentiated to be attributed to a specific master of the school - I would not go to through the trouble myself otherwise. There are of course freak occurrences and head-scratcher, but It doesn't make for rational bets. 

 

Today, the competition for the promising TH blades is very high, and they are unlikely to be acquired by westerners shopping online. In the rare occasions when these blades are presented online because a dealer needs cashflow and his retinue of preferred clients chatting on LINE are not taking the bait, they will be priced at 2/3+ of the way to Juyo and hence discarded as "too expensive for TH" compared to the ones at 1/3 the price with the same attribution from another dealer. The later has, of course, no chance of Juyo and above, and big problems. But to the collectors who have little to no exposure to great blades, the price-to-paper ratio is most often the deciding factor. The day one sends a batch of "good deal TH" to Juyo will be the day of a brutal reality check. Ignorance is bliss, in a way.

 

At the end of the day, Juyo or not Juyo, the blade is the same. Remember that one can build a very sensible and enjoyable collection that tells an interesting story without a single Juyo blade. 

 

Hope this helps, 

 

Hoshi

 

Definitely a good response and gives me a bit to chew on! I actually already own a Rai Kunimitsu Juyo, a Hizen Juyo and a Masamitsu Juyo so I definitely have pieces to compare against

Edited November 15 by Sukaira

[Gakusee]

14 minutes ago, Sukaira said:

That's interesting, I had never considered sending it in for the same grade.

 

Actually, the other day I was thinking about Juyo in general and it seems like it is really more useful (at least partially) for mumei blades in particular. Like what is the real point of putting an ubu, pristine, signed and dated Tadayoshi 3 or something similar though the entire ladder? After Hozon, you already know what it is, it's been verified and I can't imagine the market doesn't understand what the value would be as is. Why would you need NBTHK Juyo shinsa to tell you your ubu, pristine, signed and dated Tadayoshi 3 is an ubu, pristine, signed and dated Tadayoshi 3? . I know there is some prestige and nuance to that, but as a whole, Juyo shinsa seems way. more useful for mumei blades, where actual attribution and research needs to go into identifying and preserving mystery blades.

 

Because not all Tadayoshi are equal….

[Sukaira]

Just now, Gakusee said:

 

Because not all Tadayoshi are equal….

Right, but what I am saying is that if you have a clearly top quality piece to a well known smith, it is easy for the market and knowledgeable dealers to understand it's a masterpiece. You don't need a Juyo shinsa team to tell you that. That's why you have TH and Hozon master pieces selling for $50k+ without Juyo attribution.

[Gakusee]

Just now, Sukaira said:

Right, but what I am saying is that if you have a clearly top quality piece to a well known smith, it is easy for the market and knowledgeable dealers to understand it's a masterpiece. You don't need a Juyo shinsa team to tell you that. That's why you have TH and Hozon master pieces selling for $50k+ without Juyo attribution.

Yes, but a lot of people delude themselves that they have a top piece. In fact the majority.  It requires a lot of knowledge (absolute and comparative), honesty, sobriety and self-criticism to admit that one might be wrong and deluded oneself that the piece is a top one.
So, while one might think theirs is the best or among the best, a few attempts at shinsa (in my view one is not enough) could actually prove or disprove that. A top piece eventually gets promoted, even if not at first attempt. 
 

Also resubmitting at the same level has a few complications and hurdles one needs to overcome…..

[Sukaira]

Just now, Gakusee said:

Yes, but a lot of people delude themselves that they have a top piece. In fact the majority.  It requires a lot of knowledge (absolute and comparative), honesty, sobriety and self-criticism to admit that one might be wrong and deluded oneself that the piece is a top one.
So, while one might think theirs is the best or among the best, a few attempts at shinsa (in my view one is not enough) could actually prove or disprove that. A top piece eventually gets promoted, even if not at first attempt. 
 

Also resubmitting at the same level has a few complications and hurdles one needs to overcome…..

Definitely, which is why I wanted to ask around here first. Really what intrigues me the most is getting more insight into the sayagaki vs the NBTHK TH paper. Like I said above, I have a Rai Kunimitsu Juyo, a Hizen Juyo and a Masamitsu Juyo...I just have never submitted any myself, so I would be interested in submitting a mumei just to see what happens!

[Gakusee]

8 minutes ago, Sukaira said:

Definitely, which is why I wanted to ask around here first. Really what intrigues me the most is getting more insight into the sayagaki vs the NBTHK TH paper. Like I said above, I have a Rai Kunimitsu Juyo, a Hizen Juyo and a Masamitsu Juyo...I just have never submitted any myself, so I would be interested in submitting a mumei just to see what happens!

That is a good line-up.
You need to brace yourself. As has been explained here several times, Juyo Shinsa has lately become more stringent, difficult and unpredictable in the last few years. So one needs to be twice as self-critical and analytical than before. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sukaira]

1 minute ago, Gakusee said:

That is a good line-up.
You need to brace yourself. As has been explained here several times, Juyo Shinsa has lately become more stringent, difficult and unpredictable in the last few years. So one needs to be twice as self-critical and analytical than before. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I looked around on here to see what was passing lately, but I didn't really find any of the latest sessions. Is there a thread showing what was passing lately? I know it has been tough, but it would be awesome to know specifically.

[Gakusee]

It is here somewhere. 

[Lewis B]

2 hours ago, Sukaira said:

I looked around on here to see what was passing lately, but I didn't really find any of the latest sessions. Is there a thread showing what was passing lately? I know it has been tough, but it would be awesome to know specifically.

2024 results

 

 

[nulldevice]

A fun little exercise I did using @Jussi Ekholm's wonderful data he's provided to the forum. The filter here is just looking at Juyo blades (Not TJ or above, but I could add that in easily enough), and the first numeric column is the number of Mumei blades and the 2nd numeric column are non_mumei. In the case of the Enju/Enju combo this includes 5 instances where there is a shumei, kinpun mei, or kinzogan mei simply to Enju. 
The columns in order are: School/Tradition, Smith, # mumei, # non_mumei.
 

	Enju	Enju	86	5
	Enju	Kunifusa	0	1
	Enju	Kunimoto	0	1
	Enju	Kunimura	5	3
	Enju	Kuninobu	2	5
	Enju	Kunishige	0	3
	Enju	Kunisuke	3	11
	Enju	Kunitoki	9	23
	Enju	Kunitsuna	0	2
	Enju	Kuniyasu	4	8
	Enju	Kuniyoshi	2	17

 

 

There are still some fringe cases that I'm working out the bugs with where the count may be off 1 or 2, but this was a quick bit of tinkering. 

 

Edit: I did more tinkering and here's a big table with most of the possibilities of mei realized:

 

Again, a huge shout out to Jussi for the compilation work he's done. I can't possibly say enough about how insightful it has been for me as a data nerd to pour over different possibilities and arrangements of the data he's collected and given to members of this forum. Its truly invaluable and selfless of him for giving this to the NMB community!

[Sukaira]

3 hours ago, Lewis B said:

2024 results

 

 

thank you @Lewis B

[Sukaira]

3 hours ago, nulldevice said:

A fun little exercise I did using @Jussi Ekholm's wonderful data he's provided to the forum. The filter here is just looking at Juyo blades (Not TJ or above, but I could add that in easily enough), and the first numeric column is the number of Mumei blades and the 2nd numeric column are non_mumei. In the case of the Enju/Enju combo this includes 5 instances where there is a shumei, kinpun mei, or kinzogan mei simply to Enju. 
The columns in order are: School/Tradition, Smith, # mumei, # non_mumei.
 

	Enju	Enju	86	5
	Enju	Kunifusa	0	1
	Enju	Kunimoto	0	1
	Enju	Kunimura	5	3
	Enju	Kuninobu	2	5
	Enju	Kunishige	0	3
	Enju	Kunisuke	3	11
	Enju	Kunitoki	9	23
	Enju	Kunitsuna	0	2
	Enju	Kuniyasu	4	8
	Enju	Kuniyoshi	2	17

 

 

There are still some fringe cases that I'm working out the bugs with where the count may be off 1 or 2, but this was a quick bit of tinkering. 

 

Edit: I did more tinkering and here's a big table with most of the possibilities of mei realized:

 

Again, a huge shout out to Jussi for the compilation work he's done. I can't possibly say enough about how insightful it has been for me as a data nerd to pour over different possibilities and arrangements of the data he's collected and given to members of this forum. Its truly invaluable and selfless of him for giving this to the NMB community!

Awesome, thanks for this. Yeah Jussi really is the hero with his data-centric tendencies

 

I do also have an Enju Kunisuke TH that has a Koson Kinpun Mei that the TH paperwork also acknowledges...maybe I should put that up too for funzies.

 

In Tanobe's Yamashiro book he describes that Kunitoki is the Enju smith most are familiar with simply because he put out the most surviving blades from the Ko-Enju school (I assume Ko). Those numbers check out with that assertion as well.

Edited November 16 by Sukaira

[Promo]

Not educated enough to add to the topic, but just to mention general thoughts: if you show the blade in here first and have it discussed (documented for everyone to be read in a public forum too), if the blade then fails, do you want your blade somewhat "documented to have failed Juyo"? Remember that according to our Western standards for some this would mean that the blade isn't good enough and maybe with that knowledge will value the blade at less than what it deserves. If you are 100% certain you'll be keeping the blade anyway (and that this will not change, even if it fails - you may be disappointed of it afterwards and have a hard time to look at it again) and you'd just be keen to know, then I do see less risk with that. Also, think about what you would do if it does fail. Would you want it to stay in Japan for it to be submitted to Juyo again and again? At least there sometimes were claims that submitting an item a few times may result it somewhen to possibly achieve Juyo, but also no warranty with that. Or do you really want it back immediately afterwards?

 

The fact that your thread initially started with a different blade and you then bring up another blade that you may consider submitting may make it appear as if your wish is mainly to have submitted one blade and for it to pass Juyo, to kind of "have this experience". Is this what you want? Also, why would you want to send it over for Juyo? Because you think it is the best for the blade and that the blade is really something very special that should be documented as Juyo? It is easier if a blade already is in Japan, not much to be lost. If you ship it over for Juyo shinsa, then there is more work, time and money involved, with absolutely no guarantee that it will achieve of why you are doing this.

[Sukaira]

5 hours ago, Promo said:

Not educated enough to add to the topic, but just to mention general thoughts: if you show the blade in here first and have it discussed (documented for everyone to be read in a public forum too), if the blade then fails, do you want your blade somewhat "documented to have failed Juyo"? Remember that according to our Western standards for some this would mean that the blade isn't good enough and maybe with that knowledge will value the blade at less than what it deserves. If you are 100% certain you'll be keeping the blade anyway (and that this will not change, even if it fails - you may be disappointed of it afterwards and have a hard time to look at it again) and you'd just be keen to know, then I do see less risk with that. Also, think about what you would do if it does fail. Would you want it to stay in Japan for it to be submitted to Juyo again and again? At least there sometimes were claims that submitting an item a few times may result it somewhen to possibly achieve Juyo, but also no warranty with that. Or do you really want it back immediately afterwards?

 

The fact that your thread initially started with a different blade and you then bring up another blade that you may consider submitting may make it appear as if your wish is mainly to have submitted one blade and for it to pass Juyo, to kind of "have this experience". Is this what you want? Also, why would you want to send it over for Juyo? Because you think it is the best for the blade and that the blade is really something very special that should be documented as Juyo? It is easier if a blade already is in Japan, not much to be lost. If you ship it over for Juyo shinsa, then there is more work, time and money involved, with absolutely no guarantee that it will achieve of why you are doing this.

Yep, some good points. I personally do not intend on getting rid of the sword regardless of the outcome as it's a beautiful piece that speaks to me. I bought it TH and the submission is more about the sword itself trying to discern the delta of Enju -> Yoshimasa and the fact that I have never held an Enju piece (and I have held a few) that has striking moist jigane (strong uruoi) like this.

 

Also, I might still submit the original blade in the thread. In February I will be in Japan to inspect the final polish and my contacts over there have already suggested I submit it.

 

For what it is worth, I showed this (Enju/Yoshimasa) sword to Bob Benson and his son Nicholas in Hawaii in much higher detail than posted here and they have asked me to send it to them in March and said - and I quote - "It is a good candidate for Juyo". They also suggested I send it to Tanobe for some thoughts on the conflicting attribution while it's there.

 

All that being said, I appreciate all of the inputs and this is all part of the fun to me. I love good swords, at all levels 

Edited November 16 by Sukaira

[Sukaira]

This 49th Juyo is actually pretty similar as well. I am also aware that more blades were passing around this time.

 

 

[Rivkin]

Its no Awataguchi, but if I remember correctly better pictures, it looks like a good sword. It might have a shot at Juyo, though again Juyo is its own domain with its own rules.

Edited November 16 by Rivkin

[Lewis B]

11 minutes ago, Rivkin said:

Its no Awataguchi, but if I remember correctly better pictures, it looks like a good sword. It might have a short at Juyo, though again Juyo is its own domain with its own rules.

And a goal mouth that constantly shifts. Who knows what the flavour of the month will be next year. 

[Sukaira]

Does anyone know, if it were to fail would they give any input on what they thought it was? Say if it were to change attribution in their eyes, would you know the bucket it falls into or does it just fall back onto the TH cert?

[Promo]

12 hours ago, Sukaira said:

Does anyone know, if it were to fail would they give any input on what they thought it was? Say if it were to change attribution in their eyes, would you know the bucket it falls into or does it just fall back onto the TH cert?

No feedback at all.

 

If your blade already is in Japan for Polish anyway and if you can afford it, then submit it (shipping over just for Juyo shinsa is something I personally wouldn't consider). Not much additional hassle, just submission fee and time needed, but at least no extra shipping. At worst it failed, at best it gets papers.