Transition from koto to shinto periods

[palousian]

14 hours ago, jdawg221 said:

Very few koto pieces survive in a state that has not seen dozens of polishes or multiple kissaki reshaping efforts, so having any sort of objective evaluation on the durability or performance of these swords is iffy at best. 

I am mainly an audience member on this site, so apologies if I say something clumsy here, but I have a koto osuriage katana (Enju) that has a small homare kizu on mune.  It has been explained to me that this is desirable, and it certainly was an attractive feature to me, as I wanted something that had evidence of use.  Perhaps, then, a homare kizu that doesn't ruin the blade is desirable because it is just this kind of "objective evaluation on the durability or performance"?

[Mikaveli]

5 minutes ago, palousian said:

I am mainly an audience member on this site, so apologies if I say something clumsy here, but I have a koto osuriage katana (Enju) that has a small homare kizu on mune.  It has been explained to me that this is desirable, and it certainly was an attractive feature to me, as I wanted something that had evidence of use.  Perhaps, then, a homare kizu that doesn't ruin the blade is desirable because it is just this kind of "objective evaluation on the durability or performance"?

 Welcome to the forum. 🙂

 

It's a little off topic for this thread, but your best bet is to create a new topic, along with a picture of the blade / kizu (as how it's been described, verses how it might be evaluated may differ).

[palousian]

Thank you!  I am absorbing as much as I can, and there's a lot! 

 

I didn't really intend to evaluate my particular case; rather, I was asking whether "homare kizu that don't ruin the blade," in general, represent a kind of objective test of the quality of a koto blade.  The rest was just me saying hello.

[Hoshi]

Quote

 

Proof by meme, must be true then... 😂

 

It's fine to have an opinion, but there should be some basis in verifiable facts (especially when asserted as a statement).

 

Anyone can have a favourite den, school or smith - that's personal choice, but getting into the "better" classification, you need to cite how.

 

 

 

Just trust me. 

 

Or, if you are so inclined, I suggest your search the forum, read Darcy's old blog, read Markus's sesko blog, pick up a beginner friendly book, etc. This is a topic that has been re-hashed since the dawn of NMB, and I don't have the mental fortitude to dive into it. 

 

It's based on 700 years of sword appreciation. But it is also an arcane topic that takes a fairly long investments of time, in-hand experience, reading, etc, to establish what makes a "good" sword. 

 

[Tohagi]

I remember an old mate statement "don't laugh at mino !" I actualy realy appreciate kanemoto's and others...

In France I answered : don't laugh at Burgundy...

 

Best

Eric   

[Mikaveli]

1 hour ago, Hoshi said:

 

 

Just trust me. 

 

Or, if you are so inclined, I suggest your search the forum, read Darcy's old blog, read Markus's sesko blog, pick up a beginner friendly book, etc. This is a topic that has been re-hashed since the dawn of NMB, and I don't have the mental fortitude to dive into it. 

 

It's based on 700 years of sword appreciation. But it is also an arcane topic that takes a fairly long investments of time, in-hand experience, reading, etc, to establish what makes a "good" sword. 

 

 

Who was it that said, if you don't understand something well enough to explain it simply...

 

Instead it's just the parroting of conventional opinion, not backed up with substance. Just an appeal to tradition and some mystical quality that just isn't measurable.

 

You often encounter the same attitudes in martial arts, each convinced that their style holds the most effective technique, just never proven and somehow imperceptible to anyone who hasn't spent 60 years practicing their "2000 year old" art.

[jdawg221]

3 hours ago, palousian said:

I am mainly an audience member on this site, so apologies if I say something clumsy here, but I have a koto osuriage katana (Enju) that has a small homare kizu on mune.  It has been explained to me that this is desirable, and it certainly was an attractive feature to me, as I wanted something that had evidence of use.  Perhaps, then, a homare kizu that doesn't ruin the blade is desirable because it is just this kind of "objective evaluation on the durability or performance"?

Coming from personal experience homare kize can easily be caused by something as pedestrian as paired kata with sharps... which was extremely common in pre meiji kenjutsu, so even that isnt necessarily a judge of the blades quality, unless you somehow are able to go back in time to see what specifically caused it. A hanwei tori elite I had a while back had lots of homare kize from this exact thing.... does that make the tori elite a better sword than a hizen tadayoshi? No.

[jdawg221]

9 hours ago, Hoshi said:

"mino is bad because.... when i look at blade i dont see as many pretty steel patterns!!!"

[sabiji]

Well, I obviously made a mistake. I didn't want to start a fundamental discussion about the Mino tradition here.

I just wanted to show that there are important reasons for the emergence of certain traditions (or renaissances), which need to be examined. It should have decisive (also distinguishing) characteristics, as well as a fundamental influence on a craft, so that specific characteristics and peculiarities are passed down through generations.

In all traditions and renaissances, there are certain schools that have periods of prosperity, which often only maintain a certain level of quality for a few generations and then disappear into insignificance.

This can be mirrored in a renaissance such as Shinto. And as others have already written here, it would make sense to divide Shinto into several phases, as each phase is subject to certain conditions and characteristics. Everyone can decide for themselves how they want to divide them up. It may be legitimate to date the beginning of Shinto in textbooks to around 1600. However, if you take a closer look, you cannot avoid including the Momoyama as the actual foundation of Shinto.

 

And that brings us back to the topic. So when it comes to the transition from Koto to Shinto, we should look at the Momoyama period. The consolidation of Shinto is certainly from the Keicho via the Kanei to Meireki/Manji. If you are more fascinated by High Shinto, you should look at Kanbun to Enpo. And if you want to know why Shinto loses its power, you need to look at the period from Genroku and onwards.

That's my opinion.

 

[Mikaveli]

2 hours ago, sabiji said:

Well, I obviously made a mistake. I didn't want to start a fundamental discussion about the Mino tradition here.

I just wanted to show that there are important reasons for the emergence of certain traditions (or renaissances), which need to be examined. It should have decisive (also distinguishing) characteristics, as well as a fundamental influence on a craft, so that specific characteristics and peculiarities are passed down through generations.

In all traditions and renaissances, there are certain schools that have periods of prosperity, which often only maintain a certain level of quality for a few generations and then disappear into insignificance.

 

There's been nothing wrong with any of your contributions - all interesting, with several points to consider.

 

2 hours ago, sabiji said:

And that brings us back to the topic. So when it comes to the transition from Koto to Shinto, we should look at the Momoyama period. The consolidation of Shinto is certainly from the Keicho via the Kanei to Meireki/Manji. If you are more fascinated by High Shinto, you should look at Kanbun to Enpo. And if you want to know why Shinto loses its power, you need to look at the period from Genroku and onwards.

That's my opinion.

 

Yes, across that period is definitely in scope for this thread. Especially examples, dates events etc.

 

For example, when someone mentions Kanbun, I have a fairly clear image - but I just kinda take the dates for granted. 😅 It's all small details, but an example of "here's one of the earliest examples of Kanbun" (or whatever feature, style, etc.) to plot the transition into the period where some of the generalisations hold more true.

[Tohagi]

Transitions periods are very interesting to study: for example, I have a Mihara sword from Momoyama tensho wich shows all the caracteristics of Kanbun Shinto and even integrating mino influence in hamon...

Mihara is usualy very conservative yamato-den... and disapered in shinto.

 

Best,

Eric