Kiyomaro

[Darcy]

Well now my interest is piqued,

 

Does anyone know of a Daimei or Daisaku work signed Kiyomaro, but attributed to Kiyondo? I was unaware the he did anything like that.

 

and now that I have poured over many oshigata, the thing that strikes me is the shape of the Jiri - Kiyomaro seems to have been very consistant in his later years and this one does not seem to fit. Appears rather more pointed to my eye but perhaps now I'm staring too hard...

-t

 

 

Mayyyybeeeeee that explains the mumei Kiyondo that Condell had so many years ago.

 

I never saw any but according to Kiyondo and what seems to be Fujishiro reporting a firsthand conversation with him, there are 30.

 

After Kiyomaro killed himself, Kiyondo said that "After receiving an order for a sword made by the teacher, half of the cost would be accepted, but there were only thirty swords he did not complete, and due to the fact that these men (the nushi who ordered swords) requested me to make the swords in place of the teacher, in due time, I filled these promises.". The swords which are inscribed "SHI NI KAWATTE TSUKURU TÔ" (Made this sword in place of the teacher) probably should be viewed as "JI SAKU KIYONDO MEI NO TÔ" (Swords made by Kiyondo himself).

Even though the Kiyondo copies of "KIYOMARO MEI" are commonly seen, these, of course, are not included among these "SHI NI KAWATTE TSUKURU TÔ".

 

So what I gather from the somewhat awkward phrasing is:

 

1. Kiyondo finished the 30 swords and noted them on the nakago. Refinishing a nakago might maybe erase his additional notation. It's not clear if he started with existing material on some or others, he just says his master took the money for the orders, and the orders were not filled, so he filled them.

 

2. He additionally made more "copies of Kiyomaro mei" and that sounds like a polite way to say he faked Kiyomaro blades after his teacher died. They are not among the 30. 

[Darcy]

I understand Darcy, but this is not from Kamakura jidai.

 

If i buy a very expensive blade from shinshinto period i'd expect a sword in perfect conditions.

 

 

It's not always a condition issue, it's a fabrication issue too. If you try to copy Norishige you're going to get kitae ware.

 

If you make muji hada with no interest maybe you will get no kitae ware. 

 

It doesn't mean one sword is better than another.

 

Also, I'm not telling you what to buy. I am pointing out in all situations that putting kitae ware first is putting the cart before the horse.

 

If you want a flawless Norishige copy maybe it is out there but it won't be cheap. That is the third leg of the seat. Once someone throws away all flawed swords (99%) and wants perfect masterwork, when presented with the price they are usually unhappy.

[Darcy]

and now that I have poured over many oshigata, the thing that strikes me is the shape of the Jiri - Kiyomaro seems to have been very consistant in his later years and this one does not seem to fit. Appears rather more pointed to my eye but perhaps now I'm staring too hard...

-t

 

 

Good eye. I missed that.

[Darcy]

Is it just me that finds it sad that the koshirae had Tokubetsu Kicho papers and still someone thought it better to substitute the tsuba and sell the kozuka/kogana separately, thereby completely invalidating the papers?

I understand people split up koshirae to make money or whatever...but when they have papers???!

 

 

 

In Japan they're usually storing the tsuba off of the koshirae from what I see. Sometimes it's shipped like that and it is a big surprise if they wrap the tsuba in the first few folds of the bag, someone gets a piece of iron dropped on their toes (if they are lucky, if not, on the floor).

 

I know a blade that has a Juyo tsuba and the tsuba is lost now. Nothing nefarious. Just bad record keeping and carelessness. 

 

These things will come into the dealer then incomplete. Dealer subs in whatever will fit. So it can happen like that, as well as the flat out greed.