jensen6865 Posted April 29, 2014 Report Posted April 29, 2014 Hi all, Second of the swords I got from my Dad, found in an old trunk. My sibling have most of the ones we already knew about from the Occupation. He was with the 158 Bushmasters. Hira-zukuri Wakizashi Nagasa-15 5/8" Moto haba- 1 5/16" Boshi appears to turn back pretty far. Nothing done, but a little oil on blade for pictures. Any ideas where to start the research? Thanks, Dan Quote
cabowen Posted April 29, 2014 Report Posted April 29, 2014 Late Shinto/early shinshinto, Mino or derivative maybe.... Quote
jensen6865 Posted May 1, 2014 Author Report Posted May 1, 2014 Hi Chris, Thank you for the thoughts, I will begin there. I am amazed at the way you can see so much so quickly. Beginning to see it takes a lot of viewing and reading to have the "eye". thanks, Dan Quote
runagmc Posted May 2, 2014 Report Posted May 2, 2014 Hi Chris, just for my own interest, can you give anything specific that makes you think it wouldn't fit as one of the many Mino tanto/kowakizshi of this style made in the late 14-1500s? Not disagreeing... but off gut instinct from pics, it's hard for me to say. I'm guessing your comments are meant as a best guess off gut instinct as well, but... I know I have seen many Minoto like this from the 1500s, but can't remember a Shinto/Shinshinto off hand. Mino smiths use so many styles of hamon, forging/hada, nakago and nakagojiri shape, and yasurime during the 1500s, but the sugata of this sword was certainly common with Mino kaji then. It is unsigned which could be a reason to lean toward Shinshinto... maybe... but I'm not even confident about that. Anyway, thoughts welcome... And to the OP... if you are hoping to pin point a certain smith... beware, it will be nearly impossible. Not saying you shouldn't research it... after all, even if you never know the smith, you will learn other useful things... Quote
Marius Posted May 2, 2014 Report Posted May 2, 2014 Adam, I know it is in old polish, so it might be hard to say, but... Hint: muji hada Quote
cabowen Posted May 2, 2014 Report Posted May 2, 2014 Hi Chris, just for my own interest, can you give anything specific that makes you think it wouldn't fit as one of the many Mino tanto/kowakizshi of this style made in the late 14-1500s? Not disagreeing... but off gut instinct from pics, it's hard for me to say. I'm guessing your comments are meant as a best guess off gut instinct as well, but... I know I have seen many Minoto like this from the 1500s, but can't remember a Shinto/Shinshinto off hand. Mino smiths use so many styles of hamon, forging/hada, nakago and nakagojiri shape, and yasurime during the 1500s, but the sugata of this sword was certainly common with Mino kaji then. It is unsigned which could be a reason to lean toward Shinshinto... maybe... but I'm not even confident about that. Anyway, thoughts welcome... And to the OP... if you are hoping to pin point a certain smith... beware, it will be nearly impossible. Not saying you shouldn't research it... after all, even if you never know the smith, you will learn other useful things... It is a combination of factors: The hamon is much more regular and lacks activities usually seen in early Mino work. The hada is quite tight and without activity, much more so than older work. The nakago sabi doesn't look deep enough to be an older work. It could be a Kanenobu or other Mino group or it could be a Mino derivative as well. In any case, it looks to me like post Koto work. Of course this is a function of the photos and condition. Perhaps with a good polish and better pictures, everything could be different, but I would bet not.... Quote
runagmc Posted May 2, 2014 Report Posted May 2, 2014 Still not disagreeing necessarily because I can't call this one... but for the OP's sake here's food for thought... just to explain why I'm not sure... Quote
jensen6865 Posted May 2, 2014 Author Report Posted May 2, 2014 Hi all, WOW! I know I'll clueless still, but what you all see so quickly still amazes me. I am still stumped by a Japanese term I'm not yet familiar with! Thank you so much. I have been reading to see a simple safe way to try and get pictures of hamon/ hada etc without messing with polish. Have to resist the temptation to just crocus cloth to get a better view! Thanks for the information and direction. Question please what is Sabi? Thanks, Dan Quote
cabowen Posted May 2, 2014 Report Posted May 2, 2014 The one mekugi-ana is also a bit of an indication as many koto blades have been remounted and have additional holes, like your example. Like I said though, this is just a rather off the cuff shot due to the photos. I am not saying it couldn't be older, just at first blush, with what we have to work with, I would lean towards later rather than earlier. Quote
jensen6865 Posted May 2, 2014 Author Report Posted May 2, 2014 How do I miss something as obvious as only one mekugi-ana! I see, all of the ones I have been looking at have at least two. So focused upon the suguta I didn't even think to fit that in yet. Thank you Chris, Dan Quote
jensen6865 Posted May 3, 2014 Author Report Posted May 3, 2014 Hi, A few more pictures that may help with what I don't see and don't know yet how to word. The nakago has been sanded or cleaned off at some time, perhaps to try and see mei. With the bad state of polish you can just see some of the hada in the pictures. Very tight and straight compared to what my katana is. Dan Quote
runagmc Posted May 3, 2014 Report Posted May 3, 2014 Yes, I agree the single ana and lack of mei could point to later rather than ealier... I don't think I can really be sure enough to even guess on this one though... Anyway, pretty well made looking sword, too bad the state of polish... Also, Dan, I believe Chris is refering to patina of the tang (nakago) when he says "nakago sabi"... I don't think I've heard the term used this way either, so Chris will correct me if I'm putting words in his mouth Quote
ancientnoob Posted May 28, 2014 Report Posted May 28, 2014 Question please what is Sabi? As a newbie, in my struggle to understand the terminology that is passed around so casually and is completely alien to the new guy, and have been googling and reading like a mad man. The Nakago-Sabi revers to the patina on the tang. The experts folks suggested the work was later because the patina was not as thick as it should be for a blade of a 1500's vintage. Hope I was able to help. Quote
Baka Gaijin Posted May 28, 2014 Report Posted May 28, 2014 Good afternoon Dan, Question please what is Sabi? I believe Sabi 錆 can be read simply as rust. Not to be confused with the Sabi 寂 in Wabi - sabi. Cheers Quote
jensen6865 Posted May 28, 2014 Author Report Posted May 28, 2014 Hi guys, Thanks alot for the information and ideas. I'm reading and looking whenever I have a chance and I am starting to have a little bit of understanding. This blade nagako has been lightly sanded or something like it, probably to see if there was anything at all underneath. I am afraid I would have done it too just a few short weeks ago if I had not talked to all of you when I found these blades! I now get just how terrible and unforgivable it really is! You can still see a few places on it where it wasn't sanded or eq. and it it pretty deep? still. I am trying to get a picture that shows the hada better. Difficult with such a sad state of polish. It does have a definite grain. Fairly fine. Looks like the hamon has Nie spots along it that I can make out where polish isn't quite as bad. Will try oil and different angles and light. Thank you all, Dan Quote
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