Shin Gunto wooden scabbard question. LATE WAR??

[rusted180]

Hello,

 

In regards to collecting ww2 shin gunto, I was wondering about the origins and use of the wooden saya. From what I researched on this site and as well as other forums, any scabbard made of wood, aluminum, and iron with a leather combat cover means that it was modified for field use. correct? well how come on this site: http://www.h4.dion.ne.jp/~t-ohmura/gunto_034.htm it says that wooden scabbards with leather "combat covers" are considered informal scabbards? any thoughts? I am still waiting for my book (Imperial Swords of Japan) to be shipped to my house, so unfortunately I cannot look this info up.

 

For my second question, I want to verify if wooden sayas were strictly used during the late stages of ww2. I got a chance to view some pics of a sword with a wooden saya and mounts that would indicate it to be an early war example. The owner of the sword described the sword to be manufactured in 1941, but I could not make out the markings well from the photos to verify this. If what the owner says is true, then how could an early blade have a late war scabbard? could it be that the original saya was damaged and replaced near the end of the war? or has wooden scabbards always been around since the early parts of ww2/2nd sino war, thus eliminating the notion that wooden scabbards were ONLY around '44 and '45?

 

Lastly, has any of you ever seen a tsuka without a ray skin cover? The handle of the sword I viewed has wrapping that appears to be period correct, but does not have a ray skin underneath the wrapping..... would this indicate a period repair job? I have heard that the ray skin can shrink if exposed to the elements too long. any thoughts guys?

 

thanks in advance fellas! here are the pics I viewed that made me wonder...

 

 

 

 

 

 

[george trotter]

Hi Andrew,

I think you will find that there are general guidelines to WWII Japanese sword mounts (eg Type 94, 98 and Type 3 etc) which indicate the period of introduction, but there are many "individual" exceptions and contradictions....this is normal in nihonto.

By using the term "informal" for leather covered wood sayas it is meant that these are not the formal saya design issued by the army, but are a simple light leather covered field mount. Very good for field use (also lighter and cheaper than metal). If you were on formal parade in Yasukuni in front of the Emperor you would probably use the "formal" mounts.

As for when is the the correct period for leather combat covers...I would think all through the war. In fact pics from 1931-1945 show all sorts of swords in combat covers, both army and navy and both metal and wooden sayas.

As for your final pic, I'd say the same has just dried out over time and the "granules" have fallen out. The fact that a piece remains in the kashira shows what the original same was like.

While your sword definitely IMHO had same...it is possible to find some swords with artificial (cellulose) same, black lacquered cloth/leather (navy) and also a coarse gauze like material with lacquer on it. I have a sword with the last type and the quality of the fittings (Type 3 see pic) is very high, as is the gendaito RJT blade....so variety and non-conforming is not uncommon on WWII gunto mounts and it does not always indicate quality or lack of quality.

Regards,

[rusted180]

Hey thank you so much for the info! that really adds much more to what i learned about this sword and it's unique features! espcially the ray skin photo example you posted to confirm what you say! I also posted this same message on another forum and much was learned from the members on that forum as well!

 

from what i gathered, some of the members on WRF confirmed it's age and smith! made in 1941 and Kanesada as the maker! a photo was also provided that showed a similar early war sword with a wooden scabbard. Thanks again for replying!

 

-andrew