cabowen

I will try to answer a few of the questions pointing in my direction as best I can before I have to run to work on my house (holidays are over!)... Regarding gunto and their polishing, we know that for the most part they were given very poor polishes. I think Fujishiro Matsuo sensei, who worked in a shop where Yasukuni-to were polished, remarked that it took one day to polish a sword (normally at least a few weeks!). The people polishing were not exactly fully trained professionals. I have seen pictures of the polishing "lines". This is one area where woman were employed as well.... While I have seen blades with decent polishes, they are in the minority. With the demands of war, expediency was to be expected. As one poster above has astutely observed, most were indeed given what may best be called a "gunto polish": hada obscured, hamon covered with an artificial hadori, etc. In effect, they are shiny and sharp. All that was needed. Many are in what might be called a crude sashikomi, but I have also seen many with the "painted on hadori" look. Also, when cleaned repeatedly, what was once a hadori of some sort can be removed and you end up with something that almost looks like sashikomi.... I couldn't really give any reliable percentages on how many were hadori, how many sashikomi. It is much easier to say how many were poorly done-nearly all. And thus we have the basis for an argument against George's "historicalist" viewpoint wherein everything should be left as is or redone in period polish....The "historicalist" perspective is that of the literal archaeologist-leave everything as found....Nihon-to are not bones, they are art. Art needs conservation and preservation using the best techniques available at the time. Without proper polishing nearly all the WWII era blades would be lost and forgotten. No doubt most probably should be, but those by the better smiths would never have captured the attention and earned the respect of preservationists without proper polishing. It is only through a proper polish that the quality of the blade becomes apparent and the workmanship can be appreciated. Now, George asked me what I do with my blades. Simple: I give them the quality polish they deserve. Some have been done in sashikomi but most in hadori. I want the quality of the quench, the forging of the steel, and the talent of the smith to be visible to all who can appreciate the beauty created when man, earth, fire, and water mingle. The smiths who spent years in toil perfecting their craft deserve nothing less than to have their skills properly displayed. Enough for now. Time to get to work....Hope this answers some questions...

Hi, I also confirmed this. They said that they had not used the black. I am pretty sure I have seen black numbers before...maybe they were on torokusho from other than Tokyo....

Haven't they also been black?

Oh but if only they all were beautiful....forever....

Good to know the truth behind this. Did they say what they are related to?

Since these are Japanese swords, and it is their history, culture, and craft, I do defer to them. Anything otherwise would be like them telling the Canadians how to play hockey.... When it come to which polishing style I prefer, I made up my own mind based on what I saw. For me, it really has nothing to do the NBTHK and fashion....I think the fact that I started collecting gendaito 20 years ago is proof enough of that.... All polishing is an interpretive process and the polisher ultimately has a large influence on the appearance of the blade, whether sashikomi or kesho shiage. There is no way around that. Just because a blade is finished in sashikomi does not mean you are in some way seeing the "real", "pure" or "true" blade. You are simply seeing that polisher's version. In any case, we have both stated our views, made our points, and hopefully caused some neurons to fire....I'm glad we could relieve you of a great weight....always feels good to express one's self....

I said that many (not all) do not seem to know how to properly view a sword. When people say that hadori hides the detail in the hamon it means they are not looking at the blade properly because when held at eye level and pointed at a light at the appropriate angle, the hamon will light up like a neon light and all the detail is plain to see. I have seen very few people hold a blade this way to inspect it. It is the best way to see the detail.....it also allows one to play the bulb up and down the blade to check the quality of the foundation polish. If the foundation is well done the image of the bulb will remain the same size and shape as it moves up and down the blade. If it undulates and changes shapes back and forth it means the blade has waves in the surface and the polish is poor.

I can't say with authority if more material is removed absolutely as I can't recall if hadori finishing takes off from where sashikomi ends or (and this is what I think I remember) hadori starts a step or two before the finishing of sashikomi and proceeds from there. In either case, you might be talking micrograms of material removed. Definitely inconsequential in relation to what is removed in the shita-ji steps. It is also inconsequential when compared to the amount of material that needs to be removed to repair an amateur polish job....

It may also be that your artistic sensibilities point you in the direction of sashi-komi....as I said, it is subjective and personal....everyone is entitled to their preference as far as I can tell... What indeed! What needs to be done is to have an exhibit sometime with good and bad examples of both and to lead a directed study to illuminate the finer points of a good polish. Perhaps at our next show...It is always better to debate when everyone has the same baseline.....

Your argument is interesting and more defensible than the prior "traditional" argument posed. However, there are a few counter points that can be made... First of all, we should define faults. No togi-shi can successfully mask fukure, ware, etc. from a knowledgeable eye. The "faults" a good togi-shi is working on are more in the way of cloudy hada or a dim hamon. The art is in subtleties. Highlighting, downplaying, accentuating, etc. It is all still there, it is simply how much attention is drawn to the ha, the jitetsu, etc. There are no silk purses being made of sow's ears. A lot of this would go right over the head of the majority in the West because, simply put, most in the West do not have the knowledge and experience to appreciate much of the subtlety involved, nor do they know how to view the blade correctly. The togi-shi's job is to make the sword look its best. That of course is subjective and hangs on the aesthetic structure built over time on the cultural foundation that is Japan....but in the end, that is the secondary purpose. Lacking that, a blade needs only to be sharp.... Good hadori is not a "painted in hamon". It is translucent and when the sword is viewed properly, all the hataraki will jump out. The hada is more observable in a hadori finish, giving you the best of both worlds. A big part of the problem is that it is easy for a second class "togi" to do a "hadori" finish, and they do look painted on... I have found that most in the West who knock hadori shiage have never seen it done by a first rate togi-shi. I use to feel the same way until I spent a weekend with several smiths and several togi-shi, surrounded by several dozen blades in both styles of polish. I listened to all the debate and had examples in hand to study. After seeing many first rate examples and being taught how to look at the blades correctly, I came to agree that hadori is preferable in most cases....

It is relative, not absolute. Dynamic, not static. Each generation does their "best" based on the state of the art and knowledge base at each point in time. It is subjective. It is art, after all. There are no absolutes that everyone will agree on. What is today's trash may be tomorrow's treasure... That said, when hiring a togi-shi, most are relying on his years of training and expertise. His aesthetic sensibilities are part of the package. There are few people reading this with the depth of knowledge and expertise possessed by a professional togi-shi. Personally, I have always found it beneficial to defer to such expertise. If I do not trust my togi's judgment as to shiage style, perhaps I need to question my selection of togi-shi. It is, after all, a matter of trust. And what are we paying for, after all? Expertise.... To state once again, sashi-komi has been preferred for use on blades with a tight habuchi, such as those in the Bizen-den. When the habuchi is not distinct, such as in Soshu-den, hadori has been preferred. To say that one style fits all is probably a bit dogmatic, don't you think?...

I say this thread has gone off topic because the original discussion concerned the quality (or lack thereof) of the polish on the original poster's swords. It has become a debate over the merits of sashikomi vs kesho polish. It should be moved to a new topic..... I will refer you to several sources which discuss this topic-two have been mentioned on this board already-essays by Jon Bowhay and Guido Schiller (excuse me if I have mis-spelled anyone's name). Clearly the polishing art did not spring forth fully developed. Early efforts where much more about sharpening and less about exposing jihada and yakiba. Of this there can be little doubt. As stated, it has been an evolutionary process. There is no exact date when suddenly every togi across the land hit on the same process and it was decreed that on that day sashikomi shiage was born.....Same with hadori. It did not suddenly and spontaneously appear and has been around in one way or another for a long time. No argument that swords have been appreciated for a long time. And no doubt that as the Muromachi period closed, polishing was quite developed.....and still developing... I am not belittling anyone. There is nothing personal in the argument I make and there is no arguing with simple personal preference. What I am pointing out is the fault in logic when standing on "tradition" in support of sashikomi as superior or preferential to hadori. Polishing has been a dynamic, not static, process.

I think this thread has now officially gone off road.... What is traditional? As someone has mentioned, the polishing art has evolved through time. Sashikomi as it is known now is but one stage in the continuum, and a later one at that. It certainly evolved as a way to show the beauty within the blade and had little practical benefit. In 100 years people will probably be calling hadori traditional... Blade making itself evolved...When something is in a constant state of evolution, where exactly do you demarcate traditional? Why not call the 13th century polish traditional?

http://www.nbsk-jp.org/english/competition_result1.html

I have seen kokuin applied. Hot stamped they were.... Sadakazu is one of the most copied smiths. There are loads of fakes. Again, it all goes back to the blade. Kokuin are much easier to fake than his quality workmanship...It is awfully difficult to apply the kokuin exactly the same every time, making slight differences common.

I do not believe there is one that was fully trained. I know there is one in that general area that spent a few months here and there in Japan but I wouldn't call that qualified. If there is someone who was fully trained, I would like to know about it.... Let me add the following....There are two parts to proper polishing: the technical aspects of being able to correctly use the stones and finishing materials to properly correct, shape and finish the blade, and the kantei knowledge necessary to use those skills to put the blade in the appropriate condition for its age, tradition, and maker. An important part of that is knowing how to accentuate and downplay aspects of the blade to allow it to look its best. Fixing flaws and defects is part of that...While it may take only 3-4 years to learn the technical aspects, the correct application of those skills takes deep knowledge of kantei-something that takes much longer and requires directed study under an expert with many quality blades. It isn't learned from books, videos, or trial and error. To use an analogy, a classical musician needs both the technical ability to play the instrument and a knowledge of music theory to make "music". One without the other produces nothing but noise.....I have yet to see an amateur polisher's work (and I have seen a lot) that shows a mastery of both the technical skills (they fail usually at foundation work (lots of waves in the blade) or finishing (hadori is incorrect) or both) and kantei (if the blade is unsigned, they are almost all shooting in the dark)....

Please email/pm me and I would be happy to help you further....

Hi Chris, Thank you very much for taking the time to translate it. It was a good friend of mine that sent it to you. I was just curios if it were possible the blade was older ? Was there an earlier generation of this or these smiths working in the Koto period? Does the piece have typical period Shinto charachteristics? Thank again you for your time and response. I suppose anything is possible but according the Meikan, which is the smith bible, there were no earlier generations signing this way. Looks pretty shinto to me, as far as I can see from the photos....

As for Japan, there is no list or formal ranking. The best, maybe only way, to "rank" them is to look at the results of the yearly polishing contest held by the NBTHK. They publish the results every year. Of course, mukansa polishers are at the top and they are usually well booked. There are those just below this level that regularly win awards. Then there are the newer people who take the entry level awards. There are also excellent polishers who refuse to play politics and stay out of the contest. There can be gold in those waters.... One can also ask the museum for recommendations thought there are politics involved with that. Many times people send blades to polish through agents. Most sword dealers broker polishing. As for the US, I have said here previously, there are only 2 resident professionals in the US. I have brought craftsman from Japan to the US to work for 3 month intervals in the past and hope to do so again in the future. The gentleman in San Francisco is usually booked for 7=8 years ahead. I am not sure about the gentleman in Hawaii. If you send it to anyone else in the US you are rolling the dice and they are loaded.... If you want further info. I think there are some details on my web site....

Sashikomi is indeed considered traditional though from what polishers have told me, hadori is more an "art" polish, rather than a practical or functional polish. It has long been said that certain higher ups in the sword community preferred the "art" polish and set the trend. Some say it is just the next step in the evolution of the craft. One could make the case that the earliest polishes were most likely very rudimentary and that what is now thought of as traditional sashikomi is actually a relatively new development and not traditional at all.... No doubt there were samurai who liked the shibui but there must have been plenty who liked flash or there wouldn't be anything but suguha and tosho tsuba.... The Osaka area has always been known for its affinity for hade (flashy)....Just look at the works of Osaka shinto for proof.... Absolutely. However, I think this debate was focused more on quality rather than style....

There is good hadori and not so good. There is well presented ji-tetsu and not so.... Here is an example of well done hadori: Notice how it is semi-transparent. Also notice how the ji tetsu is clear, not cloudy and hard like a mirror. It looks like the steel was vivisectioned.

Someone just sent me pictures of this the other day and asked me to translate... From what I recall, there are two smiths in the Meikan that signed "Higo no Kami Hiro X". One is Hironaga(長), the other Hironobu (辰). They were both from Mino and worked circa Kanbun (1600's). Hironobu ?....

It is always good to learn from one's mistakes, though better to learn from those of others..... There is no reaction when using a professional as they are fully trained before they start accepting work as an independent craftsman. No one gives them top class blades until they start making a name for themselves but one doesn't have to worry about them pooching a blade either. Most I have talked to will defer to a senior polisher, usually their teacher, if something significant comes in.... By the way, outside of two Japanese trained polishers in the US, with one of these in Hawaii, the other in San Fransisco, there are no currently acceptable polishers in the US. That makes it rather simple.....

What finish would be more appropriat do you think to showcase the blade? edit: added ? mark in place of period. Neither if it isn't done correctly..... Fewer blades are done in sashi-komi these days as kesho has become more popular. A lot of people knock kesho because all they have seen are poorly done examples. When done poorly, it makes seeing the activity in the blade difficult. When done correctly, the ji is clear and visible and, when viewed correctly, the hataraki are clear as well.

but unfortunatelly, Chris, it will take a newbie years, before deciding the level of professional polishing needed, which means years before knowing quality (In Nihonto/polishing/art) There are two kinds of newbies: those that seek out the knowledge of those with experience and follow it and those that don't.....