Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini

Has same and wrapping. Broad belt hook likely to parry no present on the specimen you posted. Katana lenght ? A Samurai would have carried a sharpened one, a commoner would have been not allowed to carry what at the eye of the police seems a Katana. EDIT it's wakizashi length accordingly to the description. Seemed very long and slim, if we take the tsuka as comparison might be the length quoted is wrong. Wow. Copyright infringement occurred somewhere...

I wonder if this affect your judgment ability about the subject... Anyway I dont envy you, but there are thnigs we can't choose. John is suggesting to check it with other sources, otherwise “Quiet accurate”, “in general” compared to what ? This is a completely un-academic approach to sources. The book has already been screened and doomed as c§^p. I think this apply to the part you quote too but I can be wrong. To prove me wrong, I’ll give you an hint on how an academic comparison is done : check the bibliography of Ratti’s book, put your hand on the Japanese original sources (IF ANY) talking on what of your interest, have it translated by a professional as Markus Sesko. Make out your own opinion on how the book used the original sources and how much they’re reliable. Anyway before you spend quiet some money in translations, be aware that I’ve Oscar Ratti’s book by at least 25 years and it's now rising a leg of my hobby table, with good reasons. You’re possibly referring to some other board, as most of us here, me included, has “The Galeno Collection” book (among others on Armor) which pics of kusari katabiriha of pages 181 and 182 I don’t post out of respect for Ian, which own the copyright, so no hot-water re-inventing here. BTW, I've been told how to create fake bullet-dents on Kabuto. Guess you get what I mean. The presence of such chain armors in most if not all great and ancient collections (Stibbert included) attests the market is far to be new at them (as also at fakes). Their present availability simply means they're easier to buy thru e-prey / yahoo Japan or whateveryouwant. If you mean they're new to the www (that exists by... what ? 20 years? ), that's another story. The images and information were available, as you've generously proved to us posting pics from books published not so recently. The *items* weren't available (to the average John Smith). And this lead us again at yahoo Japan, E-pray, Whatever. Making a comparison with swords : 70's, 80's no web commerce = genuine/fake ratio 10:1. After web commerce genuine/fake ratio 1:10. Chinese antiques even worse. Let's hope it's not the case of these items too. Your faith in the WWW is admirable, but Wikipedia hasn't a great appeal to real scholars.Wonder if these are yours and you're the wiki contributor (look déjà vu, it's your usual background, article last edited before your posts if I'm right) : If they're indeed your contributions, I wholeheartly ask you for the sake of the community to avoid to add this one until you're *very* sure it's not a fake.

Now I'm lost (possibly due to my english). You (or Don) are putting in the same category with the same name a blunt weapon and an exclusively stabbing one ? EDIT : being completely from = mimiking it with another purpose ? The small one you posted pics of... Where's the point of mimiking a blunt-type sugata for stabbing ? Couldn't simply be for something else, as were the child's swords ?

Ah, right, that's a sensible point for you. Let say the type of conflicts changed, *sensibly*. Don't tell Tony (A.J.B.) you mention this text as source or it would get ballistic. It has been banned from Samurai Archives as one of the most ridicolous ever (do a search, you're registered there as well or go straight here).

Thanks Ford. So there are also blades. Have to be very nice.

@ Thomas, Now that I'm back home I'd like to add another feature that might suggest the use of "reverse" grip for Hachiwari. Please allow for a moment their existance before 1600. They're all invariably curved and most quite much curved toward the point. They tapers a lot also. Considering their shape, in the case you're too close to the enemy to use it as a club which grip would you feel more comfortable with when trying to push the "kissaki" into your opponent's armor weakest point (the eyes) ? Due to the steep curvature the regular one force you to rise the arm and expose your armpit, the "reverse" one allow you to enter your enemy's skull easier. Can't see the need of many of Hachiwari's features in Edo other than copying the old specimens (if effectively they are ancient items, you can suggest). As said many other items performed similarly against unarmoured (or chainmailed) opponents so why to produce then with this sugata ? These items are not the same thing IMHO.

The placement of the blade stopper (bottle opener) suggests the use in a reverse way.

This mean the Sekigane is cosmetic (Daisho with Tsunagi) or were they fit to blades ? Nice work.

That's why possibly the written info might have been "inadequate". These blades are intended to be practical ones, not for appreciation. Anyway I think the pics probably were adequate enough as they almost invariably are. I'm convinced Tsuruta san will do of his best to settle the matter.

Right, the confusion is my fault cause : should have been worded differently, with "hit" instead of "broken". My point was they were orginally intended against armored opponent, disappeared in Edo : So the really unnecessary Apologize. Of course all the other my points remains.

Same shape and use, according to you. They are from the same *group* of weapons, still they *aren't the same*. You refer to the pic with the (most likely) tourist bronze Meiji item ? Definitively disagree. Hence because I said we're going far from the topic item.

Methink we posted at the same time and you missed a line of mine.

Bet it's Edo hence not suited to sustain your argument of being unable to break kabuto.

Of course, differently from what generally assumed from the name Hachiwari, they weren't supposed to break kabuto but knock-out the opponent hitting him on the armored head or even break his neck, other than of course to be used as a proto-jutte and bone-breaker. Still related to armored opponent. Why the hell you are supposing I meant break an helmet ? I tend to give quite some importance to proper therms and definitively doesn't convince me the mentioned source quoting both hachiwari and tetsuto were the same item. Same *use* in edo, possibly, but not the same item. A Katana and a wakizashi are simialr and used the same way but they'r not the same thing. As per the need of using different sources I agree but you should also focus on the quality of them, not the quantity. Everybody can makes mistakes or can use improper therms. We're now very far from the topic's original item

Methink that if there already is a proper therm for an item that's should be its name. Seems the authors are stretching the matter a little too far unless cause the lack of kabuto to be broken they assume the item had no more to be called "helmet breaker" even still maintaining the original shape. A naginata made in Kamakura and one made in Edo still are both naginata, even if their target changed. BTW the lower one is Meiji and bronze. Maybe they published a tourist item ?

Eric, it says that iron sword used in Edo *similar* to Hachiwari were referred to as tetsuto, NOT that they were the same item nor their use was the same. BTW looks like yet again the same book, not a different source.

Sorry but I can't see any reference to Hachiwari in the page you posts that BTW is the same I was quoting not a different one. It's simply mentioned it's a different item more known in the west. Thanks for the pic of a tetsuto with scabbard I've asked. Differnt from the item in topic. Which are the other sources you are referring to that shold be read explaining Hachiwari and tetsuto are the vey same thing ? Discussion is steering a little away from the original item don't you think ?

Not accordingly to the source you've linked, especially as concern the people they were intended for and the use. Hachiwari strikes with the INWARD of the curvature mainly against kabuto (but not only), tetsubo (when curved) the other way around,never intended for battlefield. The hachiwari hook is a very useful plus when used against armored opponent to pull the kabuto off the head of the enemy . Hachiwari was born for samurai and continued mainly for them, tetsubo are for commoners.

It's a kabutowari IMHO, NOT a tetsuto. Check what's under the tsuba. But photobucket is under maintenance right now. Can't check the other pics. Anyway seems not related to my questions on the item in topic. Thanks, I'll wait.

Was it listed into the "Iaido" section ?

mmmm... Fast and Heavy rarely go together and the Obi is still carried by you.

This books describes Tetsuto as either simpler (straight) than the posted example or as having a wooden scabbard if intended to fool (curved), differently from the specimen posted here. A mount is quite understandable also under a practical point of view as this would be a much lighter weapon with the same effectiveness. Why to produce a wakizashi-like tetsuto (looks too long to be a naeshi) as big as a complete mount, completely of solid iron ? Much heavier to carry, not as fooling as one with a wooden scabbard, likely more clumsy due to weight. Any opinion on this ? Would you kindly post the figure 3-5 showing the Tanto-like tetsuto with scabbard from the original of the book you own ? It's omitted in the web free version.

No problems, but now it's my time to say this :

This makes sense to me too...

Try this : http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/ja ... rticle.htm