baldi1942

A Muratato / Murata sword. Signed: Muratato Kanemasa. Dated: Meiji 26 year 10th month 1st day. Also has the # 5 over 327. Kogarasu-maru form. IMO this was originally a dress Sabre and probably refitted as a cane during the early 1900's. Bought from a vet who brought it back in 46'. I'd put it up for sale but not sure of a collector value. Even though Murata didn't make traditional swords as far as I know he is listed twice in the Nihonto Meikan under Kanemasa and Tsuneyoshi (his real given name) . Had it on ebay and may reslist it but .... 23 3/8" or 55.3cm and threaded tang end. This ain't no scam. It's mine and located in Central ILL, 200 miles South of CHICAGO- THE SNAKE PIT OF THE US IF NOT THE WORLD !! Sorry, my pics are correct with tang vertical but come out horizontal when I uploaded ??

Well, it's been over 2 years since all the experts expressed their opinions about this presentation Minatogawa Shrine sword I had found and purchased out in Penn. I was willing to put up 5G's but NO takers as to it's authenticity ! And repeating - I had never intended to offer it for sale nor try to deceive anyone as I knew how I discovered the sword and all the circumstances involving the purchase, etc. NEVER did I think this sword would be put down by the "experts" as questionable. I did sell the sword with guarantee that it would paper. Here is the NBTHK Shinsa result. I sincerely hope those same judgmental folks don't think this Shinsa form is fake !!! The moral of the story if there is one ? DON'T JUDGE A SWORD BY IT'S HABAKI ? and I still stick by the ol vet who said " until you've seen it all ya don't know it all " . None of us have seen it all and none of us will ever know it all !!! We're all students but to a more or less degree. just my opinion ! I believe this is a rare item of history involving the Minatogawa Shrine and is now in the care of a good friend. Too bad Herman Wallinga did not know about this sword when publishing his nice reference book. I turn 80 next month and it was a exciting "hunt" since 1973 but for all practical purposes my "sword days" are pretty much done. It's all I can do to cope with the "madness" going on thru out the world but especially within the US of A. AIN'T THE SAME COUNTRY I GREW UP KNOWING !!! Happy hunting !

I have heard of that but I know of no one who has experienced a sword being destroyed. Knowing the Japanese, I would think it would be returned but ? Not sure who checks the incoming swords but they cannot know much about quality or value as many good swords are sent for polish and/or shinsa and for customs purposes have a very low value. Back about 25 yrs ago Tanobesan told me I could bring in 3 swords and if customs gave me any problem I could call the NBTHK and resolve it. On checking thru customs I told them I had 3 katana in the tube and immediately was escorted to the Airport police office - I made the phone call to the NBTHK but NO answer !! Police told me because I was staying in a Hotel I could not physically have the swords in my possession. Next day got old Sugiyama(not sure if that was his name but Benson became his predecessor). Paid for Sugiyama to ride out to Narita + gave him a bottle of good whiskey - Sugiyama showed the Police his name card - they gave him the swords and the minute we left the building Sugiyama gave me the swords and I took them to my hotel room and next day went to confer with Tanobesan. Never tried taking swords into Japan since then. Have sent swords to Fukuoka and the customs there is less stringent than in Tokyo as seems the polisher can pick up the swords rather quickly. It's their game and we have no choice - so like I said - stay tuned and we'll some day know the outcome of this presentation Minatogawa.

Well, sorry fellas , but sold the sword and it will go to Japan and be polished and papered or not - will be a while but will definitely let u know the outcome of the shinsa. In the mean time I'm gonna go for a PHD in metallurgy so I can understand the difference between tamahagane and common ol mill steel and how the yasurime is so easy to clue one on the difference. I can't get a good photo of the hada or hamon but did compare this sword to the other Minatogawa I had and also a Yasukuni-to and the hada looks the same on all 3- very tight very fine itame IMO not muji but the hada on all 3 blades just is so tight and this presentation Minatogawa-to hamon resembled the Yasukuni-to hamon more than the Masatada Minatogawa-to. Anyway, stay tuned and maybe next year we will know the results of Ol Haruto's presentation Minatogawa Jinja katana.

Having read thru Tom Kishida's THE YASUKUNI SWORDS I find that Kudo Haruto was kinda in the good graces of the Japanese Military /Industrial complex and probably had a few cups of sake with the upper echelon of the Imperial Japanese Army/Navy. And my money is yes, this Minatogawa sword was made with steel from Yasuki but it was "tamahagane" which is the same steel produced by Yasuki Corp for the Yasukuni tatara. I find it hard to believe supplying the Yasukuni tatara with tamahagane for years and then using common mill steel for a presentation sword forged at the Minatogawa tatara.. Anyway, Haruto was according to Kishida's book knowledgeable of swords and of course steel and beat out his only competitor Tabesan to get the contract for the Yasukuni tatara. And I believe we can assume Haruto also supplied the Minatogawa tatara with the same "tamahagane" and this sword was forged from same. 5G bet is still on. May have it sold with absolute GUARANTEE IT IS REAL!

This is a update and from a Japanese fellow of the sword: " Kintei (謹呈) Presentation Kudô Haruto hakase gosô (工藤治人博士御左右) Ordered by Dr. Kudô Haruto (It can be read Haru hito. But he was Haruto) This is a very interesting sword. I could find information of both Kudo Haruto and Murakami Michimasa. Kudo Haruto (1878 - 1963)He made a big step to modernize Tatara, the Japanese unique iron manufacture. He invented some unique materials to make weapons for Japan Imperial Military (this is repeated from Steve's msg).And He was the president of Nissan Automobile, one of the biggest car-manufacturing company. " and this references the Minatogawa kikusui mon background with English translation and there's more but u need to brush up on your kanji http://ohmura-study.net/732.html also , this is the photo of my former Masatada sword that I sold few years ago - kikusui with open sui and also on nakago But: wondering ? Was the first sword forged at the shrine w/both habaki and nakago marked with the kikusui mon ? or maybe just put on the habaki and then "let's put it on habaki and nakago " How we ever gonna know positively ? All I know is this sword did come from a collector who had it for a long time before any phony crap came out of China or Japan and I doubt this former owner even knew what he had but not even positive about that statement. tom W

Agreed, we'll never know the circumstance of the habaki but all this discussion would lead some to think it reflects on the sword as a whole but best to get or NOT get papers to confirm the authenticity of this blade. We can theorize forever about the habaki but doubt we'll ever know the true fact/s. Have a couple folks in Japan who seem to have no problem with this getting papers so guess I"ll send it and if I don't croak before next year I will msg the results.

Well, Neil, you might have something with the Yasuki steel - I sure as hell can't tell ya what kind of steel this blade is made of. It does have a nice hamon w/profuse nie but guess that can be done with other than tamahagane -the hada is very tight almost muji as I see it. But, the 2 examples you show state the kanji for the Yasuki hagane - if this being a presentation to Kudosan and made of steel from his company I would think that kanji might also be added to the inscription. How about : maybe Kudosan had this blade made at the shrine from tamahagane to compare with a sword made from his Yasuki hagane ? Guess just have to submit it and get this problem solved one way or the other. Good God, if ever one of these swords could talk - sure wish this one would blabber on about it's life ! tired, gonna watch a old Western and ZZZZ.

Brian, ain't mad just stunned I guess as there is just no doubt in my mind that this blade is right . I can understand it being in army mts would be out of the ordinary but the habaki itself is as well made as they normally come and maybe the kikusui is a slight variation but looks to me like Neils 2 habaki are not exactly identical ? Now, Neil says he was being diplomatic about the habaki remark and maybe down under that's the way they read it but to this ol man " Gee, that must be old. Made even before they learned how to make a proper Habaki, with proper Kikusui mon. A 1942 and 1943 for comparison" this statement insinuates this is a trumped up wannabe shrine sword or at least the habaki - maybe I'm not educated enough to understand but that's how I read it. Guess, Neil , being a shrine sword expert, has seen every shrine sword ever made and every engraved kikusui and mine is a bummer I'll still stick by that ol Missouri vet's quote : " until u've seen it all ya don't know it all " and none of us know it all - just varying degrees of experience/knowledge. Neil, you may have been offered "fake" Masa this and Masa that but I didn't offer this to anyone on this forum - my main purpose was to show it and find out if a earlier blade is known. Well, maybe I'm wrong and it's gimei all the way , maybe the 80 yr old who died and left this military collection engraved the damn thing himself or WHO did engrave these habaki's ? the habaki maker , the smith ? some josan hired in at the forge? But, I feel $5000 strong that the blade is right and if the doubters know they are right - let's bet ! Easy money ! I'll paypal the cash to Brian or Mark Jones or don't know if I can trust Peter Bleed LOL sorry Peter ! and I'll send it to Japan for shinsa ! As for Dave in Idaho - Left Illinois 5pm Friday and reached the auction site Sat morn 7am - hit the tail end of the hurricane while driving at night on I-80 thru PA - "NIGHTMARE" pouring down rain and going 10-30 mph. That 2018 Nissan did good and NO Geritol needed , just some juice and trail mix but had a 53 yr old buddy share the drive and he brought a few non-Japanese swords home. and Yes it was under $2000 way under ! just glad there were no competitors present. Most expensive sword sold was a Nazi Luftwaffe at $1250. And the biggest incentive for going that far was the auction company would take NO out of state cks and NO credit card payments - figured I had a chance. As for BABA - bought in 2014 IPO at 86 and some more avg'g 110$ but the Trumpster (who I don't like but will vote for as the alternative is way worse) wants to "delist " the Chinese stocks and I sat for a week thinking about it and pulled the trigger - if I had woke one morning and BABA was delisted I would have been a sick puppy - sick old puppy ! and don't expect to get 15G's for this blade but one of a kind work of art and price is what one is willing to sell for and one is willing to buy for. - and shine swords are hot ! pics of tsuka and marked seppa and fuchi and that problematic HABAKI ! Neil , if I said the tsuka was rare - my mistake - just common but I've had 10-12 WW2 era blades in the army lacquered mts and they tend to be gendaito or real nice showato. I solid copper and magnet doesn't adhere - maybe I'll ship the SOB to Japan and submit it - the guys from Sotheby's were here and didn't like my SA YUKIHIDE that Kurokawa wanted to buy back in 98' so sent it for papers but declined Juyo as same shinsa 2 80cm + SA blades were submitted and mine is under 70cm but fine blade and fine koshirae and surrender tag from Saitama outside of Tokyo.

1ST THINGS 1ST: #1 Hamish ; NO I am not admitting that I am selling a fake /gimei nihonto ! I was being sarcastic - I listed this Minatogawa Jinja katana on this forum to show everyone and also to maybe find out if this could be the very first blade forged at the shrine forge. Never I repeat Never did I think the "experts" would suspect it gimei but WRONG !! #2 Steve, don't know you but thank you for the info on the fellow Haruto Kudo who was presented this sword. But, wondering if he served as the mounts are Army. My Nihongo is lacking but I thought the 御左右 was pronounced osayu /gosayu but gosou - could this be translated as "Michimasa was given the order/command to make this presentation kikusui forge sword for Haruto Kudo " ? Anyway , seems a fairly important blade and having driven 12hrs to bid I was kinda proud of this 77 yr old body holding up as when I sold my 1st minatogawa blade last year I figured I'd never find another but it happened ! thanks again Steve, for that info. and looks like Haruto and I have something in common - I'm on my 3rd Nissan Frontier pickup ! #3 Shogun, Not sure if you understood what I said about the ol vet but I did not mean that I knew it all - and I sure as hell ain't seen it all - even though the internet has opened a lot of unknown info to me. I will definitely send it to shinsa if you or any other doubting thomas wants to put up 5G's . One does not need papers to sell a good sword as I did with my Masayuki (kiyomaru) back in 84 BUT I'm not comparing this shrine sword to my Masayuki by NO means. Of course to this day I regret selling that treasure but I never had to sell another good blade since and fast forward 36 yrs and I'm at the age where my collection has got to go or needs to go. I will sell this shrine sword with a 101% guarantee of it's authenticity. If you truly believe someone would go to this much trouble and making it a presentation, no less, to a man who I doubt any foreigner and/or Japanese outside of Steve and maybe a few others would have any knowledge of - well- you keep your 50ft shrine pole sheathed and stay away from it but I guarantee there are a lot of collectors who would gladly hold this blade and admire the work.

SOLD MORE ON EBAY AND CRAIG'S LIST THEN HERE - TOO MANY "EXPERTS" - CAN'T FOOL THESE FORUM WISE ONES . "BUT" THE BET IS STILL ON AT 5G'S IF YA THINK THIS MICHIMASA IS PHONY ! tell ya another story - back around 85 I sent a oshigata to Tanobe of my signed and dated SADAKAZU and received BAD news that it was a gimei as the date was too early for any known. Stubborn ol 'me' kept the sword and around 2000 sent it to Bob Benson to submit and last year sold my tokubetsu hozon Sadakazu for more than it was estimated at that Frigginn Sotheby's auction (it was 1 of 2 blades that didn't sell). By no means am I saying I am anywhere close to a "expert" - I consider myself a student and if I lived 3 life times I doubt I'd ever change my status. But that Sadakazu looked so good in person that I just had to have the NBTHK also see it in person and felt real good when it went tokuhozon. As for this forum, have never seen so many who can look at photos of a mumei, signed or koto blades and give a opinion as to who/what /where/when !!! AMAZING TRULY AMAZING. have a nice day - I know I am ! tom W

yea, it's phony, just ck'ing to see how many experts out there would catch it - made the habaki myself couple days ago and the sword too ! but screwed up as I forgot the Minatogawa jinja blades were strictly for Naval personal. And back in the 70's when I was trying to explain to a vet that his Japanese belt buckle was broken he told me something I've never forgotten "UNTIL YOU'VE SEEN IT ALL YOU DON'T KNOW IT ALL ! just my thoughts - This blade is absolutely CORRECT and habaki too ! - IF SOMEONE OUT THERE WANTS TO LAY $1000 BET I'LL SEND IT TO Japan FOR SHINSA AND WE'LL FIND OUT - MONEY TALKS AND BS WALKS ! MATTER OF FACT LET'S MAKE IT $5000 - I JUST SOLD MY ALIBABA STOCK AND HAVE A LITTLE SPARE CASH. $5000 AND THE MONEY GOES TO A MUTUAL ACQUAINTANCE WE BOTH KNOW AND TRUST !! tom W

26 1/4" or 67.7cm it's the earliest dated blade I have found but ? where the heck is my listing ? I do not see it although I was able to find this post ????

Just bought this at a estate auction of a guy who collected militaria. Took a chance and drove 12hrs/800 miles and paid off. Was hoping for NO competition and the locals thought it a common gunto. Anyway, as you can see the blade is dated May 1941 and has to be one of the earliest if not THE earliest sword known forged by Michimasa at the shrine forge. If anyone has seen or knows of a earlier dated blade let me know. Below is the or "my" translation but the family name (Kudo?) may be wrong as am not familiar with this name. Obviously this blade was made for this Haruhito and he probably was a Army Ofc as it comes in Army mounts w/matt rust colored lacquered saya. This is MASATADA's original name and has to be the first or one of the first blades made at the forge. I found a similar shrine sword by Michimasa that rec'd Hozon papers and it is dated July 1941. Neither that sword nor mine have the kikusui on the nakago but kikusui emblem is engraved on both sides of the habaki. Blade is in decent polish with no nicks no problems other than few minor scratches and blems which would easily polish out but I'm too f'n old and not sending this to Japan for polish - too easy to pass it on w/o a new polish. Let me know if a earlier dated blade is known - thanks. hamon is a kind of lazy gunome with profuse nie and short ashi. blade length is 26 1/4 " or 67.7cm tom w OMOTE; 昭和 十六年五月吉日 SHOWA 16 NEN 5 GATSU KICHIJITSU (MAY 1941 AUSPICIOUS DAY) 於 湊川 神社 村上道政作 OITE MINATOGAWA JINJA MURAKAMI MICHIMASA SAKU "MICHIMASA MURAKAMI MADE THIS AT THE MINATOGAWA SHRINE" URA; 謹呈 エ藤 治人博士 御左右 菊水 鍛刀會 KINTEI KUDO?,HARUHITO HAKASE GOSOU KIKUSUI TANTOKAI (PRESENTATION TO THE HONORABLE MR HARUHITO KUDO KIKUSUI ORDERED SWORD FORGING ASSOCIATION ) tsuba , all 6 seppa and fuchi marked; ー目

Pablo informed me that it was not submitted to the last NBTHK shinsa but does have NTHK papers . it will be submitted in the Sept NBTHK shinsa ! another 6 month wait. oh well, can't do much anyway what with the corona. just wear my mask and vegitate. tom w

I have a video of the polished chidori yari as it was mailed to me by Pablo but how do I attach it to this forum ? tom w.

yes

I asked Pablo of Unique-Japan "who polished it?" but he does not know and said he goes thru a middleman - so ?? I first asked Jimmy Hayashi and a polisher in Japan but both turned me down and the Japanese polisher did not know of a polisher he could recommend. The cost was little over $2000. I've had the yari since the 80's and truthfully didn't pay much attention to it until I got to checking on these "chidori jumonji yari" and after realizing how rare they are and the inscription I decided to get it polished. Hopefully it will be coming home soon. . tom W

I have one and great "mei" - it's in Japan now and has been polished and should be coming back soon (2yrs). polished thru Unique Japan but don't know who the polisher is/was. mei toshogengon sama (tokugawa posthumous name) _ Daimei oite Osakajo Kawachi no Kami Monju Kanesada tsukuru kore. think it's a posthumous dedication to Tokugawa. Kanesada is rated smith - this is the photos b4 polish. Not sure what papers it received either - these are not cheap if u can find them. I am not sure if these photos will show ? Tom W

made mistake - my reply is next

My auction experience - back in Nov 2018 I consigned 9 swords to Sotheby's L18221 Fine Japanese Art auction. Had sent the swords with shinsa papers around May and left it to Sotheby's " experts" to catalog. I was in Japan when the catalog came out but did ck the online catalog and low and behold !! #1 F up; # 29 katana attrib. TAEMA w/tokubetsu hozon paper ! Should have had JUYO paper ! #2 F up #31 Nagasada katana - " no " mention of paper but had tokubetsu hozon paper ! had 4 1/2" kissaki 28+"long and I could have sold it for 2-3x's what it brought. #3 F up #33 Ichijo tsuba w/tokubetsu hozon paper. This tsuba was a super rare 50/50 shakudo & shibuichi - 1 side shakudo 1 side shibuichi - looking at the side one could see the split and the Japanese have a name/word for this but cannot recall- But this was never mentioned - just described as shakudo ! Real experts - maybe a little " vision impaired " ?? 2 swords did not sell #28 signed /dtd katana Sadakazu and obviously #29 Taema attrib. They ask if I wanted to reassign those 2 swords and NO was my answer; (later sold by me for more than Sotheby's estimates' and both parties were well satisfied It cost me $2150 to get those swords back in my hands 1900$ Sotheby's shipping 250$ Sotheby's custom's broker in NY - got a email from this outfit and either I paid or the swords would not be coming !! Never have I paid a broker for "anything" coming from abroad ! If I had been feeling better I'd have jumped on a plane at O'Hare and flew over, spent a few days in London and brought the swords back myself - would have been cheaper and always have wanted to see those museums of arms and armor, etc) but just wasn't "genki" at the time. Never again. back in the 70's I did send about 15 swords to Christie's NY and they had misread about 4 sword mei's so I told them to send them back - cost me 60$ to ship them to NY and they wanted almost $500 to send them back - drove to NY and picked them up - should have learned my lesson at that time but fast forward about 40yrs or more and having had 2 "experts" (Mark Hinton and Victor Harris both originally representing Christies but later Victor died and Mark went with Sotheby's) come to my home and appraised 75 swords. I figured there was enough information out there that mistakes would not be made. If ya want to deal with these prestigous (in name anyway) auction houses ya better make sure you have imput as to the descriptions , etc. Don't go to Japan thinking all will be taken care of. Mark Hinton wanted all 250+ swords to be sent - thought I'd send 9 to ck the action - only 30% description mistakes ! - if they'd had all my blades hard telling how many more mistakes would have been made. Maybe should have hired a lawyer and sued the auction house but ain't got a fondness for them either. tom winter

Was looking at some swords that have been lying around for years and decided to ck on a signed fuchi as never found the signature in the "KINKO MEIKAN" which is the only book I have on koshirae signatures. Don't know what possessed me to look at the seppas but alas , they each have 2 stampings. キムラ "KIMURA" (personal name ) & 純銀 " JUNGIN" ( pure silver / STERLING) . Then looking at the habaki - sure enough - it too is marked inside with same stampings, Probably few other marked seppa/s habakis out there but only one I've ever noticed and may have sold off some unknowingly ? The fuchi is signed with these 3 kanji; 記 (ki ) 光 (ko / mitsu) 逸 (itsu / ichi ) and truthfully am not sure how to read this but did look at all the signatures in the Meikan with same kanji and find nothing matching. Anyone knowing of a reference to this artisan post it plz. Did send email to a Japanese friend in Fukuoka and no luck there either. These pcs are mounted on a mumei Shinto/SST 20 " wak I bought back in the 80's and is a decent blade with thick nie-deki and lots of activity and almost full boshi both ura/omote. The saya is /was full of baby powder and still get residue each time blade is drawn but helped keep it dry from the Midwest humidity. tom winter

SOLD !!

THIS IS SOLD !

THIS IS SOLD !