ancientnoob

What do you folks think about this tsuba for sale? I like it and it is in my price range. Do you guys think it is legit? Opinions are welcomed and encouraged. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-Samura ... 3ce26370ac

Intertesting lead. I am surprised that there are not alot of photos of these swords and all their faults. I wonder if they did not survive to the present in such great number or if they are not appreciated as much as the art swords. I wonder how many survived and were remounted in Ming China? I have looked at antique Chinese swords and seen nothing resembling a traditional curved nihonto and almost nothing earler than the 18-19th century.(With the exception of museum collections and the usual production swords)

Jean, Beautiful Koshirae. You inspire me and came about this thread looking for examples of rustic muromachi koshirae. :lol: I am looking to do something similar with my piece. I don't believe I am crafy enought to do it myself but I have most of the metal parts I need from my existing Koshirae. I am far less confident with my craft skills then you are for sure. I would need to pay somone to do it or do it myself and have it look like hadies. Right now I am in the process of finding a an appropriate muromachi era iron tsuba. You inspire me...and well done.

Quite Interesting. I had not considered that. I suppose I will pass on this. Thanks.

I found this interesting looking tsuba on the 'bay. The seller says its a rare edo piece. I have been looking at lots of tsuba and none quite look like this. I am interested in purchasing this. I am really attracted to the style. What do you guys think? http://www.ebay.com/itm/261495554597?_t ... EBIDX%3AIT

Good idea Brian. Your the man.

I tend to lean towards that logic. We may never know the true answer and will probably have it Shinsa'd in the future. It was very interesting in Dary's post when he spoke of a honest mei that was was erased and replaced with a false mei. A wonderful example. I think to myself why would someone place another mei on a sword that had one already and pass it off as a lesser smith. Maybe the attribution was made to second signature in antiquity. I also wonder if there is a reference book that covers the different types of gimei? Or forgeries in general? Maybe the second signature is not a smith's mei at all and rather an owner's name. Are there examples of this. I know during the muromachi period people had swords custom made and often had some type of pre-mei text included. Thanks for contributing to my (and others nihonto) education. I am also with the guys that think it is important to understand a "type" of forgery rather than dismissing it. By dismissing what type of forgery it is a valuable chunk of nihonto and Japanese historical study is lost. Thanks again.

Ummm... What about my question?

I found this thread extremely valuable. I am all so happy for those folks that got their property back. I t could have been much worse. Kudos to the folks who worked together to build a case against this guy and to those that kept an eye out for the stolen(ish) swords.

Darcy, Wonderfully said. I can't thank your enough for the very clear examples you put forth and how you better helped me to understand the hobby. This thread has so far been a very intriguing and educational discussion. I do have further questions. In the example that I posted, what would have been a reasoning for having a signature of one smith on one side and another smith(?) on the other side. Is this common occurrence of a fakery? If so it seems implausible to place a gimei for a deceptive purpose when one is leaving the original signature in place. In your opinion what would be the logic behind this? A dedication, paying homage to an old smith? Or passing a sword in hopes that someone does not look at the other side. Both signatures are quite old, one is a deep cut the other is comparatively shallow. Does this make one signature fake, or both signatures? I would love to hear your thoughts.

Yes the sword has been discussed on the NMB. Many would not polish it, because of the cost venture. Many would argue the a polish is more than the sword is worth. It is worth more to me than what someone would be willing to pay for it. I have no intention to resell the piece. It has sentimental value to me. I am not into swords to flip and make a profit. The sword found me and now I am its custodian. I would not want to ruin the sword, hence why I asked ya'll guys help. I thank you all for your 2 Yen.

Thanks again Ron-san.

Your the man! Any luck with the title? Is there anyway to look this book up?

I have an old wood block print book I believe to be dated Kei-0. (1868) I was wondering if any folks here could share any info onthe gentleman that produced it. I gather that the subject is Nihon-to and I believe many of the swords listed in it are Koto Period. I see alot of Rai Kuni(somthing.) I also see Kane(something) I Japanese is the equivalent of a pre-k student and thus helps none. The text seems to be in a cursive type script. I do not expect a complete translation of the book but I have several of this set on Samurai, Swords, Pottery, Coins and stamp signatures. Apparently produced by the same person with the same type of cover and binding. Any info would be totally appreciated. The Cover... Some Pages... Thanks All.

I would love to see some photos of swords deemed Kazuuchimono. There are very few pictures of swords with this attribution. They belong to a group of Muromachi period mass produced swords around the time of the Onin War. Onin 1. These swords were made on an assembly line process of low grade workmanship and minimal tamahgane. The nihonto collector elite (based on what I have read) frown upon such swords, and are not considered art objects. During there hey-day they were considered disposable swords. Swords ment only for battle and not for prestige. They would have been the utility of the grunt of the day. I would image such a piece would have an amazing story to tell if it could speak. Does anyone have a source couple of pictures of Kazuuchimono? Google yeilds little. I have also read that there are various grades of Kazuuchimono. From what I have read these swords have tremendous faults and can often be brittle and have a great deal shingane. Metal blisters and a lack of activity. These were made mostly by the Bizen and Mino schools in the mid to late Muromachi before the Shinto renaissance, in which the old styles were revived. I am eager to see what the other collectors feel about these swords?

I would love to hear some theories on types of Mei. Specifically gimei. I see this term thrown around quite often. I would like to learn more about this gimei. What I know: Gimei is a term used for a false signature. A false signature is applied in order to pass a lesser smith's work as a better smith's work. In antiquity (say pre-1900) it was used to sell a lower quality sword to a unsuspecting customer for a greater amount of money(rice) due to the better smith's name inscribed on it. It seems common to see this on originally unsigned low quality swords. The gimei is also applied to complete fake constructs by crooks of the time. It was also a signature applied by a student or another smith without the permission of the original maker. What I would like to know: How are we certain if a mei is fake? Besides being newer (say fresher chisel / engraving marks compared to the age of the nakago)? How do we know the smith ever really signed the blades himself. Could he have had another guy(s) do it. Maybe many people sign for him over a long working career? How do we know what a mei is real if the smiths (handwriting) changes as he ages? My signature does not look the same as it did when I was 15 and I doubt it will look the way it does now when I am 80, let alone if I were engraving it. (not implying that I have Japanese Swordsmith like skills) Are there enough examples of a given smiths swords to make such determinations accurately? (I am sure this could vary from smith to smith and from time to time) If we know that a signature is gimei is there away to determine what the reason behind the gimei was? I would assume... If a signature is fake then it would be on a mumei blade that is of lower quality then what that smith is known to have produced. (Common, right?) Or not in the correct style, for the school and such? There is the event of an honest sword's mei is removed and replaced with another would be an attempt at a blatant deception? (I can see this happening all the time) This would be obvious to the average modern nihonto guy right? As this pertains to my sword what would the theory behind a mei where both the original mei and a suspect gimei are on the same blade. Imagine a piece of jewelry that in very small letters says TIFFANY and on the other side in huge letters says K-Mart. Theorize what would be logic behind that? Is one signature fake, are both signatures fake, how could this deceive someone. Even if the person couldn't read, they would understand that a sword is signed one way and now there is something on the other side of the nakago? I suppose that the sword could have been in koshirae but I doubt someone at that time would be willing to buy something site unseen. Was this an attempt at deception? Does the second signature mean something different? Is it the person who ordered the piece during the time of mass produced pieces? (Muromachi) Is this someones family name? First name?A smith's name. I have scoured the internet and all the books I have looking for different types of gimei. I wish someone could post one of each of the different kinds. I believe the learning experience will benefit all. (Except those guys who only buy million dollar swords with fittings made from the teeth and earlobes of extinct monkeys.) Is it possible at some point along time ago someone graffiti there own name into the nakago? Here is my example. I challenge folks out there to theorize... It may take me a lifetime to figure this out, but I swear I will look at every sword ever smithed until I find the guy who made this and like swords (a different topic) I am sure by now you are all sick about me talking about and posting pictures of my one sword. 備前國住助包 BIZEN KUNI JU SUKEKANE 国次 KUNITSUGU

All, I certainly do appreciate ewveryone's opinion. I certainly will not go with the SF ninjas. I will also investigate all the gentleman mentioned here, and the lead provided by Daniel in PM. I'm not crazy about sending my sword overseas and waiting over a year, this might be common place in the hobby but outwardly it seems nuts to me. (I dont think will remember what my sword looked like..jk) Maybe I will contact one or more of these polish guys and see if they offer a poor man service, I doubt my sword is worth half the cost of full polish but that still does not deter me. I am not in it to polish and flip it. It is something I will hand to my son and say, "son, this is a REAL Samurai sword, sell it and the Oni will get you." Again I appreciate all you folks coming out and helping me realize (more so) the significance of not cheaping out on polish. I certainly dont want to send my sword to a polisher wait two years and find out its been for sale on the 'bay. Yikes, I would die. I have enoyed looking at the work of all the various polishers thus far. @Brian/ Others I see a gentleman went a little off topic and I see it as being fine. I suppose sending various items overseas for different reasons is pertinent. I also found it a learning experience. I learned that there are agents involved, the shinsa papers all sortsa things.

Trent, There was two, $130 from Washington state and one for $150 in the UK. I opted for the Washington state one. Both were on Amazon. Glad to know a NMB member here sniped it from me. Saved me $40 bucks.

Did you folks ever get your swords back? Was this criminal brought to justice?

:D Welcome.

Reading their site it seems that they use an early 20th century type polish called Kenma. What is the story on that technique?

Have they messed up people's swords? Did you have a bad experience? I would like to hear about it? I found several back threads were this orginzation was mentioned. One member got a very good attribution from them and seemed pleased. I haven't found anything on the internet about them being a bad or scam service. I have found several folks who mentioned that they are "controversial." I don't know why? Noone has elaborated on a personal experience. I am eager to here what you all think, I am just leery of what they call "playa hatin." Thanks to all thus far.

I have been comparing prices on nihonto polish for my very humble sword and I came across these folks. Their prices and services seem uniquely inexpensive. Does any one have any experience with these folks? Care to share? Thanks all. https://sites.google.com/site/sfswordsociety/togi

Well I tried to win a copy that was at auction on ebay, but in the final moments someone chimed in and bid big dollars to sweep the book from my grasp. I was at $175 and still wasn't enough to capture it. So I tooled around for a while and found one for a fraction of the cost from Amazon. A wonderful copy that arrived today. YAY. I look forward to reading it and find out what all the hype is about.

As a newbie, in my struggle to understand the terminology that is passed around so casually and is completely alien to the new guy, and have been googling and reading like a mad man. The Nakago-Sabi revers to the patina on the tang. The experts folks suggested the work was later because the patina was not as thick as it should be for a blade of a 1500's vintage. Hope I was able to help.