dwmc

I'm sure you'll be alive, and thank you for your offer to take it to the Chi-town show. I wouldn't hesitate for a minute..we'll see. I have that wakizashi that I found in a pawn shop awhile back which I posted here on the NMB. I did contact Mr. Tenold and spoke with him on the phone. He said he had seen the photos of the wakizashi and stated it probably wouldn't be worth more than just a window polish. We left it at that, we haven't spoken since, and I certainly didn't want to seem pushy, but I have every intention of recontacting him soon. Hopefully, if he can find time, he can take a look at the katana also, open a couple more windows and offer his opinion of this sword . Dave M

I was reluctant to post those embarrassing pictures, but thought it might at least show age and shape, I've have a much more advanced camera, which I should have used in the first place, and will use for any future pictures.. Seriously, potential kiri-komi, also. Dave

I'm not sure these pictures will offer much more toward making a determination,(extremely out of polish), possibly just the shape of the kissaki will help or maybe someone can spot a clue... Again, I thank all of you. Dave

Dave and Stephen, I'm almost sorry drug you guys into this! I'm not sure why after buying the sword many years ago it just won't seem to leave me alone. (What am I,bet you can't guess!!!) Modern faked up something another, Showato experimental, maybe even Meji/taisho with severely cleaned nakago, I don't know... Stephen, I spoke with Bob Hughes at the show for as much time as he could offer. Believe it or not, he called the sword Nihonto, even after a replied, youv'e got to be kidding... I admit , even though I'm a rather pathetic looking old guy in my sixties, I know people weren't just being kind... I'm willing to ship the sword to you or Dave R to have a look in hand, I wouldn't have posted this if I didn't thing maybe there was something to be learned. Mr. Ikeda appeared to me to be a no nonsense sort of professional and would not have thought twice about saying it was some sot of fake something or another.. Dave

No Dave, the only thing I can add is the sword is horribly out of polish in all other areas other than the polished window. You may notice just how out of polish looking to the far left of the picture with the white carpet back ground. Hopefully, you can get a least somewhat of an idea of sugata by the full length photo, and possibly by a couple of the others...It just seems to me, the ji is a bit wider than normal, and stays relatively wide all the way to the yokote area, it is sharp to the habaki, with out ubuha. Amahide factory mixed metal special order would be perfect...(The first sword I ever saw was an Amahide Gendaito at four or five years old. My Father just 9 years home as a young 11th Airborne Paratrooper brought it home as a momento, not a trophy. I'll never forget wondering just what type of magical device this was as the sun light danced up and down the blade...hence my life long interest/affliction/addiction...etc.) I'm still with you...all due respect to opposing opinions, I'd also say some sort of wwll or pre-wwll sword. I really want to get a couple more areas opened, will post photos when I do.. Thanks again, Dave M

I followed this board for many years before making a post or comment...Your not a old nut at all, just calling it the way you see it !

Maybe Chris, maybe, believe me, I would like to say yes and be done with it... but I really don't think so, you guys as you said previously, are at somewhat of a disadvantage not having the sword in hand and judging by a few pictures. Stephen mentioned earlier about having Bob Bensen taking a look, and truthfully, I can't say he didn't. I showed the sword to many people at the 2012 SF sword show. Not one person said modern copy or other wise. Mr. Ikeda also. These pictures are about as close as I can get to realistic, in hand appearance, color, contrast, etc.. I brought the sword for practically nothing , I disregarded the mismatching fittings , and purchased it anyway. I own Nihonto,(some in polish, some out) Gendaito, Type 3, Hantanto, Parade sabers, Type 32's, Bayonets and still this beat up mis-matched Gunto has got me stumped. Dave

Dave, Back on April 11th, 2012 Bruno posted a topic titled "The Seki Tanrensho Book and other Infos." In the post Mr. George Trotter mentions non-traditionaL Gunto from Meji to the end of WWll. He said some very effective weapons were made using new ideas of steel manufacture, forging techniques and battle testing,he referred to Gunsui Electric Steel Co., Yasuki iron, Mantetsuto, Mikasa steel, etc,etc... Yourself, Brian and others are probably a bit more familiar with this type of non-traditional sword experimentation during Taisho/Showa. The sword could very well fall into this category. At one time I considered a full polish and determined it may not be worth the expense until I was able to determine what exactly it is.. I will however, have a Togishi take a look if he is willing, give an opinion, open a couple more windows ( Kissaki, etc.) and go from there. It will take a bit of time, obviously, and will post the results. Dave

Will do.. Dave

Thank you Hamfish and all others for having a go at solving the mystery of this sword. I appreciate everyone's opinion and would like to reiterate my purpose was not portray the sword as something is not, but something leading to discussion in the pursuit of knowledge. I didn't expect the response the post received, and probably should have titled the topic as "Mantetsu Sword?" and not made it sound so as a matter of fact. I honestly only expected maybe a somewhat criptic comment from Stephen, ( Stephen is many times Dead on with his opinions ) and also a couple others mentioning that Manchurian steel was quite commonly used pre-WWll and before. I did have have a suggestion years ago from a very knowledgeable individual who said the sword was possibly Shin-shinto era which had been a fire at some point. Also, that the Nakago appeared severely cleaned with some type of chemical... If I were on the opposite end of this topic, frankly looking at the 300% close up at the hada photo, I may have very well said modern Chinese myself. I have contacted a sword polisher and he tentatively agreed to polish a window in another sword I own, of course as with most Togi their very busy and have a lot going on, I have every intention of reconnecting with him and if I promise not to head his direction with a trunk full of rusted Gunto, maybe he will be kind enough and find the time to at least open a couple of modest windows and hopefully help further our knowledge. If I angered anyone from my comments, I apologize, it's due to a basic lack of literary skills and inability to express my self through the written word.. Thanks again to all, Hopefully further future information, Dave

Thanks Chris, The sword is what it is. I take no offense and welcome all opinions. I would also like to say I found Mr. Bob Hughes very forthright and honest, and if there was any lack of understanding it was on my part. I'm was, and still am honored by Mr. Ikeda's work on my sword and will recommend their services highly! As mentioned previously, this is what the board is all about, debate and knowledge. I agree, pictures sometimes just don't tell the full story (particularly mine.) Dave

Brian, as you know, sword shows are very busy. You really don't want to over dominate a dealers time. This may be in part which led to the confusion regarding this sword. Mr. Hughes was doing his best to answer my questions while dealing with many others. With all due respect to all learned board members, I'm inclined to think you and Dave R. may be on the right road. Some odd wartime Showato experiment. Highly value your opinion also, Dave

Fair enough Chris, Fair enough...Your opinion is most welcome! Dave

John, When I first purchased the sword, I noticed it obviously looked "Pieced together." The blade is what caught my attention, even out of polish as it was, and mostly still is. I am willing to accept what ever the member consensus is regarding the blade. Good, bad, no problem... The sword, other than the polished area, is rough to say the least, at some point I will attempt to get some decent pictures together and send them along to you. Thanks for your offer, Dave

Neil thank you. This is precisely the beauty and objective of the NMB. No offense taken in any way. Thank you all! Dave

When board members such as yourselves, who have handled and viewed perhaps hundreds if not thousands of Japanese swords, it's a good idea to listen to what's being said... However one thing I can say with certainty if it is Chinese made, modern...it ain't. The question I have is...Were there swords made in China using Manchurian Steel associated with the Mantetsu group in the 1930's (pre-Koa Isshin.) Dave

Gentlemen, I have to say I'm bit surprised at the reaction generated by this sword. The story in my opening post occurred just the way I said it did. I showed the sword to many sword dealers at the August, 2012 San Francisco sword show, many of which some of you may know. Not one suggested it blade was a modern Chinese copy. However, some were a bit confused with the Nakago, as I have also been. Yasurime, not impressive, Mumei, etc.. You would think a modern Chinese copy would have some goofy looking kanji characters... The Togishi was not fooled, however, I felt he was not particularly impressed either. As I mentioned earlier, I was surprised by him suggesting Mantetsu. The only two words I recognized were Mantetsu, when he was explaining his assessment to Mr. Hughes, and the word Showato as he was speaking in Japanese to another gentleman. When I heard the word Showato, I asked Mr. Hughes if the Togishi was referring to a low quaility constructed blade. He said the Togishi was just refering to the Era. As Dave R. stated earlier and what seems to make at least some sense, is Mr. Ikeda felt for whatever reason, the sword was made with some sort of Manchurian steel and used the word Mantetsu. This is basically what Mr. Hughes explained to me. I really don't know what more to say... The sword was found ( as I was told) on one of the Pacific Islands by a young Marine truck driver delivering supplies to the front line. He brought it home and it was wrapped in a blanket left in the rafters on a garage for many years.. All opinions are welcome and appreciated, and I think the wise words of Shamsy explain these odd Showa era swords the best by saying, "The only certainty is uncertainty." Dave

Yes, using my phone, hope their at least fairly adequate. Dave

These are photos of the Nakago. Dave

I'll have some Nakago photo's posted soon. Dave M.

Dave R. There was no acid usage by the Togishi to my knowledge, and trust me, I wasn't about to apply anything afterwards to a newly opened window... The photos don't really do the polished area justice, its actually quite stunning with the sword in hand, there where many Sword show participants after the window was completed whom commented on how attractive the hada was... The super close up photo does make the hada look very strange, but wanted to post it to show the way the grain appeared, the color in the photo is "off " for some reason. Thanks again, Dave M.

Thank You Dave...Your explanation makes perfect sense, and yes I'm sure it would be a excellent cutter. Thanks again, Dave

Brian, Honestly, I was stunned also by the Mantetsu attribution. But my understanding at the time was it was not a Koa Isshin related sword, but simply a blade using Mantetsu steel with traditional forging methods. Stephen, I know, the sword looks pretty weird, but seriously, definitely not modern Chinese.. Dave

Hi Jon, The Mantetsu connection is based entirely off the Togishi's opinion. Dave

Gentlemen.... Thank you all for your input. Bruce, Yes I have read the article at the Ohmura site...excellent information! Dave R., The sword was supposably brought back as is, Kyo Sukashi tsuba and all...but who knows. Thank you for your information. Shamsy, No truer words spoken, the only certainty is uncertainty. Thank you Neil and Chris for your comments also... Dave