Are these fittings cast ?

[Lance]

Hello All

I recently made a post that included a deer and sage kozuka and kashira as seen below

 

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11390

 

I was contacted and told that these were cast copies, "that most nice fittings that are unsigned were cast from originals and then detailed, and if you were to look into the kashira you will probably see the design reflected somewhat as the metal settled into the mold."

I've never heard this before,. My understanding of the production of fittings was the material would be set in a base/table to work, something like a hard clay or tar pitch, and worked with small hammers and chisels, the metal they'd be working with is around 1/8 of an inch thick so it's logical to get deformation from working the metal, especially on a soft material like shibuichi like this kashira and kozuka. I also have an iron fuch-kashira signed jakushi that shows deformation inside the kashira as well .

As far as copies go I thought most schools of fittings makers didn't really make one-off pieces and never return to the same designs, there would be pattern books and designs that they would reproduce from for generations, varying with the skill of the maker, later generations might come up with a new design or improve upon an old one and that might be reproduced later by later members. While not as valuable as a signed piece in general aren't really considered copies in the same way as a reproduction and there might be a number of reasons that they wouldn't be signed, and if the quality is good it could be identified as from a given school. I understand other urelated groups might copy a famous design but these were made in bascally the same way? were the only castings really done in modern times? which I really don't believe these to be.

I'd appreciate if anyone could tell me if what I've learned is correct, or if I'm wrong and that fittings were cast in the Edo period? and if so does my kozuka and kashira look to be a casting?

Thank you in advance for your time,

Lance

[Mark Green]

Not likely!

 

They look like hand made, shibuichi & gold to me.

[nagamaki - Franco]

Hmm, cast copies, , thought April fools came only once a year ..... a Nara school flavor if pushed to guess. To my eyes a brown shakudo.

[Jimmy R]

I could tell those were cast before I even saw the inside of the kashira, carvers eyes and gut intuition. Then I saw the kashira and I can say without a doubt they ARE cast. Worked metal will never bulge inward on the reverse toward the strikes. This only happens when metal settles into a mold. I could go on and on but I won't. I would like to hear from a smith or reproduction expert.

Jim

[nagamaki - Franco]

I can say without a doubt they ARE cast. ...... I would like to hear from a smith or reproduction expert.

Jim

 

[Jimmy R]

I also want to say I was misquoted. I did not say all unsigned fittings are copies. I said "almost all nice fittings have copies made of them". I meant theme style etc. I have a kozuka that I have seen many copies of. I mean exact casting. I also have several fuchi kashira that are exact copies of ones I have seen in other collections, museums and auction catalogs.

I have posed this question to many people and would really like to find out if my reasoning is somehow flawed.

Jim

[Lance]

For w hatever it's worth I didn't misquote you, but I did paraphrase two different PMs this is what you just wrote

almost all nice fittings have copies made of them

 

below are 2 quotes copied directly from the messages you sent me and they do pretty much equal what I wrote in my initial post

 

 

I was told many many years ago that as a rule of thumb kozuka that are not artist signed should be treated as copies

 

 

Those are cast. Carved pieces have definition to the edges. They were cast and then detailed. Look into the kashira and you will probably see the design reflected somewhat as the metal settled into the mold. If you disagree that is okay. But know that almost all nice fittings have copies out there struck from the originals.

 

I'm not really interested in arguing, or trying to misrepresent you, I genuinely posted this to try and clear this up for myself, as I've never heard of what you described for the production of fittings pre Taisho(1900s- modern era)There are a few members who make fittings in the traditional methods and maybe if they see this they'll be able to clear things up between Western methods of carving and traditional Japanese carving methods.

Regards,

Lance

[nagamaki - Franco]

Jim, if you haven't already, take the time to visit websites like the "Following the Iron Brush" and "youtube" to view how these pieces are made, and over time recognition will come with familiarity. I'm often wrong when it comes to evaluating images as they can be misleading, but as of now these pieces look fine.

 

P.S. oh, yes, there are lot's of copies out there. That's why it is critical to learn how to recognize custom hand work from production hand work to mass production work.

[sanjuro]

I have to agree with Franco here. These fittings look fine to me also. I would doubt that they have been cast.

 

Jim.

There are a number of ways of making fittings, not just pure casting that give a negative reflection on the inner (reverse) side. One is to punch the surface up from the inner side to provide a raised area that may then be carved. This is particularly so with soft metals. Menuki particularly were first cast as a rough blank and then carved. The tchniques are still used today in making jewellery. Kashira were very seldom made by combining a ring with a plate and then carved. (the joint is too obvious and also too soft and weak to withstand carving work done afterward) Nor were they always punched as a plate into a female former for the basic shape, then carved and/or chased with a relief design

I also suggest you visit the 'Following the Iron brush' forum.

[Jimmy R]

I see now how they are worked from the back. Very interesting. I humbly stand corrected. I really love the theme. Especially how the deer/kami is willing the fern to sprout. Very beautiful. I have become too critical in my collecting habits and have probably passed when I should have purchased. This probably comes with comparing potential buys to the catalogs and other published kodogu in my library. There always seems to be a huge gap in the definition of pieces you see in museums etc. and those you see for sale online. Especially in the collections in Japan. I almost never collect fittings unless they are part and parcel with a sword. thanks for the lesson Lance I will stick to sculpting wood.

Jim

[Ford Hallam]

For what it's worth I'll add my 2 yen's worth and say that they're legitimate hand made pieces too. The theme is that of Jurojin btw. One of the 7 Taoist Gods of good fortune, the Shichi-fuku-jin. Both he and his deer represent longevity.

 

Keith,

 

Traditionally made menuki tend not to be made from a cast blank. In fact casting (as in lost wax casting), as a rule, would not have been at all common in Kinko studio's. I'd go so far as to suggest it would have been frowned upon and would have led to a studio being regarded as degenerate because the various crafts had, and have, very clear ideas and philosophies regarding their approach to their materials and work.

 

Menuki are properly made from a single sheet of metal and the back, or inside, of the piece ought not to be touched by a metal tool at any stage of the process. This is actually an important point in assessing the quality of menuki. Here's a photo essay that illustrates the entire process from ingot to completed pair.

 

I hope that sheds some light on the process.

 

regards,

 

Ford

[Jimmy R]

I just remembered the name of that deer. It is "Fukurokuju".

Thanks for the lesson.

Jim

[DirkO]

I just remembered the name of that deer. It is "Fukurokuju".

 

Fukurokuju is not the name of the deer, it's the name of a deity closely related to Jurojin.

Some say that Jurojin is Fukurokuju's grandson and that they inhabit the same body.

[CurtisR]

An interesting discussion; I've learned a lot by 'lurking' on this one - thanks to all. And to Ford for the photo essay...I love those little buggers and wondered about their making. Beautiful Kashira and Kozuka, BTW (IMO).

 

Curt

[Lance]

Thanks everyone. I didn't think they were cast, but I did hope it might start a thread with a good explanation on how fittings were traditionally made, and it did.

All I have to do now is be on the lookout for a fuchi that might go with them...........

Regards,

Lance