Jinbaori age & fabric

[Okan]

Hi all,

 

I’m trying to determine the age and learn more about the fabric of this jinbaori. Any information or opinions would be greatly appreciated. 

 

Thank you!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[eternal_newbie]

Love the intricate detailing on the plants! Hope you have success in finding out more.

[ROKUJURO]

Hi Okan,

there seems to be a closing button instead of the traditional silk HAORI-HIMO (羽織紐). This could be an indication of late manufacture, but might as well have been copied from Western clothing.

The shoulders are probably 'reinforced' to make a KAMISHIMO look wich might point to a high-rank wearer/user (HATAMOTO?) 

[Robert S]

Interesting:  that's a brocade weave, but it looks like it then has been embroidered over the weave to achieve the raised effect and other colours.  Hard to tell without closer inspection whether or not is is a jacquard or machine brocade, or a traditionally hand-woven brocade, but I'm leaning toward at least a Jacquard loom, which would make it no earlier than mid 1800's.  Traditional brocade weaving is incredibly labour intensive - it can take months to set up the loom alone... and the loom is a massive thing.  With the advent of the jacquard loom brocade became much more accessible.  It's also hard to tell whether the embroidered element was planned from the beginning, or was an additional feature after the fact.  That would depend on whether the embroidered features also exist in the underlying brocade.

 

The embroidery itself is not top quality, but not bad - not up to the quality of top end kimonos for instance..  This is one of the things that is making me lean toward jacquard brocade and a late Edo or Meiji date - if it was traditional handwoven brocade I would expect the embroidery to be top quality.  It's also woven with a relatively heavy thread, not the extremely fine thread of top end brocade.  Overall, this is a significant piece of craft, but appears aimed at a midrange market - lower hatamoto or modestly successful businessman, not daimyo, if Edo period.  

[Okan]

3 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

Hi Okan,

there seems to be a closing button instead of the traditional silk HAORI-HIMO (羽織紐). This could be an indication of late manufacture, but might as well have been copied from Western clothing.

The shoulders are probably 'reinforced' to make a KAMISHIMO look wich might point to a high-rank wearer/user (HATAMOTO?) 

 

Dear Jean,

 

Just a small correction. I think you may have confused jinbaori with haori, as the Japanese used buttons on jinbaori since Momoyama period. They got them from the Portuguese.

The Japanese word for button, “botan,” actually comes from the Portuguese word “botão.”

[Okan]

1 hour ago, Robert S said:

Interesting:  that's a brocade weave, but it looks like it then has been embroidered over the weave to achieve the raised effect and other colours.  Hard to tell without closer inspection whether or not is is a jacquard or machine brocade, or a traditionally hand-woven brocade, but I'm leaning toward at least a Jacquard loom, which would make it no earlier than mid 1800's.  Traditional brocade weaving is incredibly labour intensive - it can take months to set up the loom alone... and the loom is a massive thing.  With the advent of the jacquard loom brocade became much more accessible.  It's also hard to tell whether the embroidered element was planned from the beginning, or was an additional feature after the fact.  That would depend on whether the embroidered features also exist in the underlying brocade.

 

The embroidery itself is not top quality, but not bad - not up to the quality of top end kimonos for instance..  This is one of the things that is making me lean toward jacquard brocade and a late Edo or Meiji date - if it was traditional handwoven brocade I would expect the embroidery to be top quality.  It's also woven with a relatively heavy thread, not the extremely fine thread of top end brocade.  Overall, this is a significant piece of craft, but appears aimed at a midrange market - lower hatamoto or modestly successful businessman, not daimyo, if Edo period.  

Hi Robert, 

 

Thank you very much for the extensive information. I bought this one, but it hasn’t arrived yet. I’ll share some more macro photos next week after I’ve had a chance to inspect it more closely with all the new knowledge I’ve gained here now. 

[Okan]

5 hours ago, eternal_newbie said:

Love the intricate detailing on the plants! Hope you have success in finding out more.

 

Thank you, Rohan! 

[Okan]

@Robert S

 

Actually there is one more. Can we call this "heavy coiled gold thread embroidery"? 

 

 

[John C]

6 hours ago, Okan said:

jinbaori

Okan:

This reminds me of a Japanese saying "like flowers on brocade", roughly the English equivalent to "Icing on the cake."

 

John C.

[Robert S]

57 minutes ago, Okan said:

@Robert S

 

Actually there is one more. Can we call this "heavy coiled gold thread embroidery"? 

 

 

I don't know if that term has a specific technical use, but it certainly looks about right.

 

[Bugyotsuji]

This is an area of gut feeling for me, not something that I really know much about, so please ignore or correct as necessary.

 

I have had about ten jinbaori over the years, and wear a couple regularly for black powder matchlock reinactments. There are many newer ones around too of course, and you do get a feeling for what is new or old, even if it is hard to put an exact date on anything. One indicative thing though is said to be the 'epaulettes' apparently, and forgive me if this is wrong, but I did hear somewhere that they were a feature that was added somewhat later on, sometime during the Edo period. Might be a line of investigation?

 

Yours above does look old to me, however, certainly Edo, but how old I couldn't say. I like the design too, and the complexity of it, though how to 'dry clean' it would surely be a nightmare. Some of them contain wool, and as a child I had asthma, so dust/mold etc. is always a personal concern.

 

PS Cloth of gold, gold brocade etc, for your second one? The green material looks like silk too. Nice!

[Okan]

3 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said:

This is an area of gut feeling for me, not something that I really know much about, so please ignore or correct as necessary.

 

I have had about ten jinbaori over the years, and wear a couple regularly for black powder matchlock reinactments. There are many newer ones around too of course, and you do get a feeling for what is new or old, even if it is hard to put an exact date on anything. One indicative thing though is said to be the 'epaulettes' apparently, and forgive me if this is wrong, but I did hear somewhere that they were a feature that was added somewhat later on, sometime during the Edo period. Might be a line of investigation?

 

Yours above does look old to me, however, certainly Edo, but how old I couldn't say. I like the design too, and the complexity of it, though how to 'dry clean' it would surely be a nightmare. Some of them contain wool, and as a child I had asthma, so dust/mold etc. is always a personal concern.

 

PS Cloth of gold, gold brocade etc, for your second one? The green material looks like silk too. Nice!

 

Dear Piers,

I don't know much about Jinbaori either. It all started after I bought the Yoroi—I thought it needed something to wear against the freezing cold AC here in Dubai!

 

I have no idea if the epaulettes were added later or not. I've seen some Momoyama-period Jinbaori with epaulettes, but it's possible they were later additions. I'll take a much closer look once I have it in hand next week.

 

I usually don't like overly busy objects, but I really liked this one. I thought to myself that whoever stitched all that embroidery must have gone blind doing it—there is so much work in it.

 

Unfortunately, standard cleaning isn't an option. I'm currently looking into safe ways to handle it, but I believe dehumidifying it and giving it some careful UV light treatment (without damaging the fibers) might be the only way to go.

 

And yes, the second one is silk. Nothing fancy. I tried to go with green this time—my favorite color, and your favorite color!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Love it! And green, yes, bring it on!

Forgot to ask about the button on the first one. They were often wood or ivory and in many cases covered with the same cloth material. 

 

(What kind of measuring rod is that?)

 

PS If you want to know what terrible condition might really mean I have a volunteer jinbaori! 
I bought it for studying the essential elements, rather than the condition. Oh, and also for what’s left of the Sasalindo Mon on the back, which I sort of collect.

[ROKUJURO]

Looks like one hour or two for mending that! 

At least the HITAI ATE is in good shape!