Japanese Dirk ID

[Morste43]

Hello All, hoping to identify this as I know this community is full of experts! Any information is appreciated! 

[Bruce Pennington]

Don't know what you've got there, but I don't believe it was made in Japan.

 

Hopefully others with experience with weapons from other countries  can comment.  

[Marcin]

How long is blade? Looks more like bayonet. And tsuka proves it.
Was it shortened?

No saya probably.

Edited June 28 by Marcin

[Morste43]

The blade is 10 inches down to the brass. The handle is about 5 1/4 inches. Overall length is 25 1/4 inches. 

[Morste43]

It appears to have had a scabbard at some point but I don’t have it 

[John C]

Wow. Cobbled together piece. The tsuba is hand made from a thick piece of brass, much thicker than normal The kanji on the collar is "lan", or orchid. Not sure what that came off of. The design on the backstrap is reminiscent of India, possibly China.

 

John C.

[ROKUJURO]

It is not even a dirk in the correct meaning. Dirks (or daggers) have 2 cutting edges.

What might help in this case is seeing the NAKAGO of the blade. Hopefully, it is not riveted. 

[Tensho]

4 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

It is not even a dirk in the correct meaning. Dirks (or daggers) have 2 cutting edges.
 

Incorrect, Dirk, deriving from the highland dirk was originally a single edged weapon. 

[ROKUJURO]

Matt,

that may well have been in the distant past. Do you have any evidence for that?

The actual definition is:

" A dirk is a long-bladed thrusting dagger It is most famously known as the traditional sidearm of Scottish Highland clansmen and officers, serving as both a formidable combat weapon and a symbol of cultural honour....."

A dagger is undoubtedly a two-sided thrusting knife. There are indeed dagger-shaped bayonets (Switzerland) but the one shown above is not one of them.

[Tensho]

 

 

Early dirks shared common characteristics, according to John Wallace. The lower edge of the hilt was curved and without metal reinforcement. The blades were long and single-edged with the tang peened over "a large burr or button." Some examples show "gimping" of the blade spine, an effect that makes the spine of the blade look like it has dull saw teeth.

 

Blades of the old single-edge tapered form made solely for dirks still existed, though cut-down sword blades (often imported from the blade-making centers of Solingen and Passau) became increasingly common. This could be an early example of recycling for cost purposes, though most experts agree it was done more because the imported blades were better tempered than those of local manufacture. Disarming acts such as the one issued in 1716 "seems only to have encouraged the cutting down of worn-out sword blades to be remounted as dirks" according to Forman.
 

Edited July 1 by Tensho

[Bruce Pennington]

3 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

Matt,

that may well have been in the distant past. Do you have any evidence for that?

The actual definition is:

" A dirk is a long-bladed thrusting dagger It is most famously known as the traditional sidearm of Scottish Highland clansmen and officers, serving as both a formidable combat weapon and a symbol of cultural honour....."

A dagger is undoubtedly a two-sided thrusting knife. There are indeed dagger-shaped bayonets (Switzerland) but the one shown above is not one of them.

Jean Collin,

I have seen this debate in the past, and it revolves around dirks/daggers from another era and/or other countries.  The WWII (acually they originated in the 1800s) Navy and rare Army dirks are called "dirks" by the entire militaria collecting world:

Omura - Military Swords of Imprerial Japan: Navy Dirks

[Conway]

1 hour ago, Bruce Pennington said:

I have seen this debate in the past, and it revolves around dirks/daggers from another era and/or other countries.

 

That is my understanding as well. The Japanese dirks are based on European pattern dirks, which customarily have double-edged blades. I think it’s more an association with the style of fittings than the type of blade. Ohmura’s site uses the term “Tanken” 短剣. I’m not an etymologist, but I’m sure it was intentional to reference double-edged blades here. 

[ROKUJURO]

6 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

..... The WWII ....... Navy and rare Army dirks are called "dirks" by the entire militaria collecting world.....

Hi Bruce,

that may well be. It is the same in the world of archaeology where they created their special vocabulary, not looking at the "normal" established terminology.

I feel that situation must be confusing for new collectors, and for me, the question arises who should learn the correct terms? 

[Bruce Pennington]

5 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

and for me, the question arises who should learn the correct terms? 

Ha!  I feel your pain, brother!  My efforts to change the community's use of "Type 3, Type 44, Type 100, Marine Landing sword" to Contingency model (Rinji seishiki) feel like standing in hurricane force winds and saying "Hey wind, blow in the other direction!".  

The community is too large, compared to our 'footprint' here at NMB, and the terms have decades of use reinforced by all the important reference books.  So, I have adjusted to casually mentioning the correct terms while discussing them using the old labels.