Kantei

[Lewis B]

5 minutes ago, Niceke said:

I bought it online from Nihonto store.

Got only this "certificate" it is surely not NBTHK.

Thats the first time I have seen hardness testing for an antique sword. Definitely not NBTHK or any other official Shinsa body. Hopefully someone will come by and give a more educated opinion on the Mei and what it says. 

[Bugyotsuji]

From the printed form and the handwriting, the Kantei is Chinese. That does not mean it is automatically bad, but you need to do some more research.

[Niceke]

12 minutes ago, Bugyotsuji said:

From the printed form and the handwriting, the Kantei is Chinese. That does not mean it is automatically bad, but you need to do some more research.

Thank you for your reply.

That is also one of the reasons why I´m here to find out if it´s real or not.

The "certificate" seems to be not real at all. After I check with google translator from Chinese to English.

I hope the Nihonto is real.

[Niceke]

Thanks again everyone.

I gonna make a new topic is section "translation assistance" to figure out the kanji on the nagako as starting point.

 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

暦応四年 神力加錬 千手院 源吉廣　Ryaku-o　４、 Shinryoku Karen (Tempered with the power of the gods) Senju-in Minamoto Yoshihiro

From here:

美 WA133 鎌倉 南北朝期 暦応四年 神力加錬 千手院 源吉廣 日本刀 ／登録証付 H zy(刀、太刀)｜売買されたオークション情報、yahooの商品情報をアーカイブ公開 - オークファン（aucfan.com）

[Niceke]

20 minutes ago, Bugyotsuji said:

暦応四年 神力加錬 千手院 源吉廣　Ryaku-o　４、 Shinryoku Karen (Tempered with the power of the gods) Senju-in Minamoto Yoshihiro

From here:

美 WA133 鎌倉 南北朝期 暦応四年 神力加錬 千手院 源吉廣 日本刀 ／登録証付 H zy(刀、太刀)｜売買されたオークション情報、yahooの商品情報をアーカイブ公開 - オークファン（aucfan.com）

WOW thank you very much Piers! Now I can research further about Minamoto Yoshihiro. 

Do you have any idea what year he worked?

[Bugyotsuji]

Start with the above date "Ryakuo 4" (alternative reading Rekio 4) and work from there. 

[Niceke]

8 minutes ago, Bugyotsuji said:

Start with the above date "Ryakuo 4" (alternative reading Rekio 4) and work from there. 

Found this info ->

 

After translating the auction website saw this -> Kamakura and Nanbokucho Periods <-  and after quick search seems to be -> 1185–1392.

 

So fascinating!! You guys (Japan) have a very historical and interesting history So much to learn

 

Me and my wife are planning for going to Japan next year for 1 to 2 weeks vacations.

Visiting Sejuin is 1 of the things on my list

[Lewis B]

6 minutes ago, Niceke said:

Found this info ->

 

After translating the auction website saw this -> Kamakura and Nanbokucho Periods <-  and after quick search seems to be -> 1185–1392.

 

So fascinating!! You guys (Japan) have a very historical and interesting history So much to learn

 

Me and my wife are planning for going to Japan next year for 1 to 2 weeks vacations.

Visiting Sejuin is 1 of the things on my list

That date would correspond to this Senju'in Yoshihiro smith

https://nihontoclub.com/smiths/YOS143

 

The kanji aren't a perfect match though and are not reflected in the list of all Yoshihiro smiths

https://nihontoclub....mei_op=contains&mei=

[Niceke]

Maybe this is interesting:

Source -> https://ia804705.us....meitsukushv8oygi.pdf

Page number: 29

        

[Bugyotsuji]

Your primary concern is to establish the validity of the Mei. Has it been added later, for example? Can we see the outline of a different, erased Mei underneath? Why is the character 住 (living in) not included? Etc.

[Lewis B]

15 minutes ago, Bugyotsuji said:

Your primary concern is to establish the validity of the Mei. Has it been added later, for example? Can we see the outline of a different, erased Mei underneath? Why is the character 住 (living in) not included? Etc.

Back to my original point as to why this blade doesn't have NBTHK papers. I would also focus on the authenticity of the Mei. 

[Bugyotsuji]

Agreed! But you have to start with what you’ve got, and then work from there.
Yos143?

https://nihontoclub....ovince_value&sort=..

[Rivkin]

On 9/24/2024 at 10:18 AM, Niceke said:

 

 

 

I don't know why its got into this topic, but it looks like modern-ish steel which is tempered roughly in sue-koto Bizen or Mino style, roughly but brightly polished, with a weirdly shaped nakago which looks like koto, possibly sue-koto, but is artificially patinated and has fresh sharp edges, with a writing which has many issues. I am bad at kanji, but this has vibes of Chinese calligraphy - thin, lots of strictly parallel lines, giving it a bit angled/squarish look.

So my diagnosis is at best its sue-koto blade which was roughly-brightly restored and enhanced or its a modern product, though relatively well made.

 

Yes, photographs can be deceiving and in real life it might look differently.

[Niceke]

I´m very happy that you guys are willing to help me because I´m a completely newbie on this matters.

 

About the nakago, I will try to make a video tomorrow when there is daylight and post it here. Hopefully it gives a better view.

 

I look over the internet about Senju-in Minamoto Yoshihiro but don´t find anything new about it.

 

Is there an expert or shinsa in Europe where I can go? Or can it only be done in Tokyo via Japanese Sword museum to get a NBTHK?

 

The registration certificate is made on August 5, 1971. The auction from Aucfan say it was sold at 22:15 on December 28th (year ????) What happens between 1971 and let´s assume 2023?

Is the registration certificate only made for export?

 

About those wholes in the nakago (I think it is called mekugiana or menuki) Only middle one (red arrow) is being used to hold Tsuka.

Why there is 2 more? It looks like it is being made after engraving the kanji.

 

[Lewis B]

No shinsa in the EU, just US and Japan. You could take it to an NBTHK-EB meeting which are usually held every 2 months in various cities around Germany. The one in Solingen is probably the most convenient for you. 

 

 

[buchtas]

This thread was very interesting and enlightening, definetly took some lesons from this, even tho I am bit late to it. But still want to ask, (I know that hands on approach is the best way to train kantei) are there any literature recommendations for this ? On how to recognise nuances of each blade and then make an educated attribution ? I suppose Markus Sesko books are a good start right ? 

[Robert S]

Fascinating exploration!

[Niceke]

I made few videos with overall view and from under microscope . I have an old (bit worn out) microscope but still doing pretty good.

Had to be an artist to hold my phone straight to the lens to capture pictures and video´s. Not an easy job after drinking 3 cups coffee

Not all video´s are perfect but hopes it is some helpful.

 

Here is the link --> Youtube playlist

 

Here some pictures:

       

 

 

[Lewis B]

Walter, this looks like where that blade from Japan ended up. Did you purchase it from the dealer in Andorra?

 

https://www.supeinni...y-the-power-of-gods/

[Niceke]

I noticed a "dents" (I don´t know the right words in English, in Dutch is Reliëf) when I goes over the hamon.

Tried to capture it but not easy with the focus points.

https://youtu.be/-MqgvSdRG88

[Jussi Ekholm]

The smith we are discussing currently is Senju'in Yoshihiro (吉広). In all my research I have only been able to find a single signed and dated short sword by this smith. It is dated 1343, and in the item description it is said signed items by this smith are extremely rare and that it could be the only signed short sword by this smith. In the description there is a mention of old oshigata where 1341 dated sword is featured. I cannot read that part properly where there is thoughts about it so I typed it here

 

Quote

これは光徳押形にその茎を載せている. しかし実物は末見である

 

Unfortunately I would feel that signature on yours would not be a genuine one. I would expect a tachi mei on the sword, and a different sized and shaped sword in original shape. Also the work style does not seem as Yamato Senju'in school to me at all. I would feel like Kirills guess of something like late Muromachi would be a good one.

[Bugyotsuji]

Jussi, the Japanese sentence says roughly that “the nakago features in the ‘Kōtoku Oshigata’, but the actual object itself has never been seen.”

[Jussi Ekholm]

Also that certificate is a basic form (variations of which) multiple Chinese replica forges use to provide authencity paper with their sword. The certificate is not made for your sword, as all the info is incorrect when looking your sword vs the certificate. As I've been out of replica sword game for a long time I cannot identify the specific maker you can see that this sword was finished in 2024 at the end of paper.

 

I would be very cautious if something like this would be featured with the sword you bought. As to me there would be two possibilities either the seller would be completely ignorant, or the seller would be shady. Depending on the seller I think both would be negative traits in this field. I can't figure out how something like this would be added on to the item by mistake.

 

Thank you for the translation Piers, I was rolling options bit like that in my head but couldn't get it really correct.

[Niceke]

Thank you to you all for your time and effort to investigate about my sword.

Well it is not such a pleasant news but important of all is that we know more about it and I learned allot from you guys!

Hopefully this can helps other future buyers to be extremely aware when buying a sword without NBTHK documents.

 

Again a big thanks and appreciations for all your help guys!!!

[Jussi Ekholm]

Hopefully you were not too disheartened. I feel your sword is still interesting authentic Japanese sword. It would be fun to try to figure it out better but it would require some much more qualified people than me to identify the details and make a good guess on what the sword actually is and around what time it was made.

[Niceke]

14 hours ago, Jussi Ekholm said:

Hopefully you were not too disheartened. I feel your sword is still interesting authentic Japanese sword. It would be fun to try to figure it out better but it would require some much more qualified people than me to identify the details and make a good guess on what the sword actually is and around what time it was made.

 

Well it is for no one pleasant when they hear that it´s not 100% genuine. But off course it is always better to know the truth then find it out later. Many says that the truth will come out soon or later. Better soon then later

Like you said that it will be a hard task to figure out more about the nihonto. Time will bring advice and who knows someone pass by that knows more about it. Let the mystery trip starts.

Thanks again Jussi

[Lewis B]

On 8/2/2022 at 4:25 PM, Rivkin said:

Let’s do the reveal!

As I said earlier, please cut me some slack – its easy to act as sensei when one runs the kantei and has all the cards, but still explanations should be given – and they should come with an exclamation its just a personal opinion.

 

There are a few ways to judge this blade.

Sugata locks you into either Kamakura-earliest Nambokucho or very late Nambokucho-early Muromachi. In hand the lack of niku and the balance point suggests Kamakura, but this is subjective.

Its heavily nie-based so its either Yamato or Soshu, with some exceptions. The coarse jigane in shinogi-ji comes up as very long lines, and that’s a sign there is long masame there as well.

 

Lets go Yamato route, its easier and faster.

Possibility 1: Not much comparable in early Muromachi, so accept the notion its Kamakura. Kamakura Yamato by definition should be first and foremost considered as Senjuin.

Possibility 2: Its Yamato with midareba. By definition it can only be Senjuin. That’s actually what the sayagaki argues. It can be added that nioi choji-like midare in Yamato is also exclusive Senjuin traits.

Lets go Soshu route, its also fun.

It does look like Satsuma, but nioi-guchi is seldom Satsuma’s strong point, it tends not to do nioi based midareba covered by nie and sugata is quite off. But its an important note, because Satsuma was particularly inspired by Go and Norishige. In the same way if we would say its Horikawa, we mean it looks like Sadamune.

We can also right away check that nie 1cm wide and 20cm long endulating “belt” is either Yamato Shizu or Etchu, its Extremely uncommon everywhere else.

So in Soshu route there are not that many practicing first class tight itame (often referred to as Awataguchi hada) with bright broad nioi-guchi and nioi/ko-nie hamon covered by nie towards habuchi. Most Kamakura lineage is strictly nie based, for example. The three options here are Sa, Naotsuna and Go. Some Mino Kanenobu are nioi based but nioi-guchi is weak and jigane is large featured. Naotsuna tends to have large featured jigane, more mokume. Sa is a good option, I felt. His itame hada is excellent, but he did not do much masame-nagare and ara nie away from hamon is uncommon. If you look at his kinsuji you don’t really see transition to masame.

 

In fact, Awataguchi hada with nagare, bright broad nioi-guchi and nioi/ko-nie hamon covered by nie towards habuchi, plenty of ara nie and occasional use of “nie belts” in Etchu fashion is a textbook definition of Go. You can find the exact wording more or less in “Connoseurs”. Re: Nabeshima Go meito and many other examples.

 

So what’s wrong with calling it a Go? First the boshi is not typical for Soshu, Go’s in particular tends to be much wider, its can be called “yakitsume” but its wide. Sugata is a bit different, the sori is larger, the tapering is larger than what you usually see with Go. There is arguably stronger presence of masame-nagare, nie within the hamon forms really nice clouds, but overall its presence is more… sort of  “stout”. It has substantially more Yamato character to it.

Here one can remember that there Senjuin Yoshihiro smiths from Echizen province, with signed examples, and Go Yoshihiro is often considered to be one of them. So the commentary of Honami Koson (which might be my confirmation bias, I really need to study the issue much more!) was that its Kamakura period’s Senjuin Yoshihiro, possibly the father of Go.

 

This in turn should bring us to the question – what is the so called Senjuin school? As I mentioned, its not advised to be placed in judged competition except Ryumon Nobuyoshi. The attribution to particular names is impossible; there have been attempts to write up different subschools but they all run into problems that there are plenty of nijimei examples which are papered Senjuin but which are not consistent namewise with “Shigehiro school” etc. Its also largely attributed in a negative fashion: really old blade with Yamato features which is not Yasutsuna or Kyushu-mono.

How did we come to this?

To an extent we have to thank the “five Yamato traditions” for that. When the classification was created Tegai Kanenaga and Hosho smiths were considered almost mid-Kamakura, and Taima was also referenced in Kamakura genealogies. When it became apparent that Taima, Shikkake and Hosho were very short lived, Tegai did not really begin until 1300 – still the “five traditions” were kept. So you have a bizarre case that Yamato Shizu is not considered a mainline, while Taima does.

Even more bizarre case is that while every Soshu tradition is “shadowed” by its Yamato counterpart, all of these counterparts actually can be found in Kamakura period’s Senjuin examples. Here is mid Kamakura “proto-Taima” in tight itame with nie splashed all over.

The quality varies, but towards 1270-1310 you start seeing extremely high end Senjuin. Awataguchi hada, nie laced throughout; the best ones do tend to come to old attributions to Echizen Masters like Go and Norishige. But they are different: the forging style can vary a lot within the blade, more comfortable with pure masame sections, more comfortable with chouji midareba or nioi ko chouji based hamon. The signatures are sadly lacking, but it can be ascertained as Echizen Senjuin – a precursor to Echizen Soshu.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi @Rivkin. Can you provide some more details about the blade above. Not the kantei blade but the one in the linked post showing just the monouchi and kissaki. Is this the mid Kamakura "proto-Taima" in tight itame with nie you mention? What is the specific attribution and do you have more images and info? Thanks

[Rivkin]

If I remember correctly it has papers to Senjuin if only because sugata is earlier and Taima is not used for earlier than end of Kamakura blades otherwise it would be a contender - tight itame, wide suguha-based hamon in nie.

[Lewis B]

Thanks. The reason asked is because there are elements that can be picked out in my Senjuin kodachi. The ko-nie in the monouchi being noticeably more refined on my example. The boshi with a tendancy to kaen and sunagashi appears not dissimilar to the blade you posted.