gimei removal question

[Reinier]

hey guys,

 

when i did a search on gimei removal one thing struck me as odd.

why is it that it should look like there was never a mei to begin with?

 

can the rest of the nakago really be trusted if it's gimei?

if the blade was made to be gimei from the start the whole nakago will be made to mimic a certain style/smith.

and is the fact that i was gimei not a kantei point in it's own? it's known that certain smiths made certain gimei.

 

now maybe i'm naieve but why not just invent a easily recognized symbole or some modification that is added to the nakago and can't be easily removed?

 

everyone would be able to see it's gimei.

wrongly identified gimei wouldn't be lost forever.

it would be a lot cheaper than gimei removal.

the gimei could still be used for kantei.

 

am i overlooking something?

 

regards,

 

reinier

[Jean]

Hi Reinier,

 

"why is it that it should look like there was never a mei to begin with?"

 

Because, Nihonto is art and a wrong mei on an artifact is forgery, gimei is pollution

 

"can the rest of the nakago really be trusted if it's gimei?"

 

Generally yes, because it is a lot of work to reshape a nakago, yasurimei should be changed to match the smith work if not the right ones.

 

But you can also find gimei on orikaeshi mei.

 

Extract from AFU Glossary :

Orikaeshi mei: 折り返し銘 Mei in which the original nakago is cut and folded back when a blade is shortened in order to save the original mei. Can also be used by clever counterfeiters.

 

"if the blade was made to be gimei from the start the whole nakago will be made to mimic a certain style/smith. "

 

Agreed

 

"it's known that certain smiths made certain gimei."

 

You have to reformulate your statement, you are mixing gimei and forging "A la manière de ..." e.g. "in Chogi, Nagamitsu, Kanenaga, Rai style", in Japanese : Utsushi

 

One of the most reknown Smith in Utsushi is undoubtedly Yasutsugu who did it upon Shogun request, old blades being suriage or unsigned

 

Mukansas swordsmiths are fantastic at Utsushi

 

 

In fact Gimei is done by unscrupulous people or maybe also by untalented swordsmiths for commercial reasons. These people are generally very clumsy. Shinsa people are very good at detecting gimei.

 

"now maybe i'm naieve but why not just invent a easily recognized symbole or some modification that is added to the nakago and can't be easily removed? "

 

Too late, everything has been and is recorded on today's smiths, so gimei on new blades is very hard, put this on old blade is alteration to be banned.

 

ex: I remember a NMB thread about an old sword rejected by Shinsa for Gimei, which has the gimei removed

and once resubmitted kanteied to the smith subject of the gimei

 

The good question is : Does perfect Gimei exists?

 

The answer is : nobody knows because if it is perfect it has not been detected :lol: :lol: :lol:

[mike yeon]

Hey Jean, Reinier. Just my 2 cents on gimei.

 

Correct me if I'm worng but true utsushi mono are generally left mumei or signed by the smith who is paying homage by making the reproduction.

 

In the case of Yasutsugu, he did make forgeries of old bizen/soshu masterworks that were intended to be the "real thing" at the request of hideyasu/ieyasu. These were meant to be given as gifts when "real" yoshimitsu blades were in short supply...

 

There's also a story about kotetsu (who was copied in his own lifetime) being presented with a blade signed "kotetsu". He looked at the blade and said "this is indeed a kotetsu but I didn't make it." (so skilled was the forgery).

 

Also, Gassan Sadakazu was said to have made gimei blades during the meiji era when demand for new swords were at an all time low and the only blades customers wanted were older pieces.

 

My point is not all gimei blades that are made to be gimei from scratch are made by lesser smiths, and not all are of lesser quality.

 

mike

[Jean]

Hi Mike,

 

That is exactly what I said.

 

The best forgery is one that shall never be detected.

 

We had in France years ago in France, Fernand Legros who was between 1960 and 1966 the biggest dealer of "Utsushi" paintings, he sold to the greatest Museums and private investors around the world more than 400 paintings done by Real Lessard "à la manière de" Chagall, Matisse, Picasso which fooled all the worlwide experts.

 

In fact there are 2 sorts of fakes, the one where an undue signature has been added on an artefact, the other being a mumei artifact made "à la manière de ". for the latter all depends of the intention of the maker. Kiyomaro trying to recreate Soshu swords and signing his works or an anonymous swordsmith trying to make fakes.

 

You can be a very good even excellent forger but you shall never be a master because you lack imagination to create your own style. the only thing you can achieve is being a Master Forger.

 

Gimei begins when you try to to make pass a copy for an original (mei)