Kaigunto230

Sword 1 - February 1942

Sword 1 - February 1942

I walked into a random pawn shop and stumbled onto these two type 97s with very nice fittings and in good polish. The owners clearly had no idea what they had but said “I wouldn’t take less than a thousand each,” which could still be a great deal given the fittings and blade condition. He was hovering over me and snatched them up before I could take proper photos, so I’m sorry for the lack of the normal Sugata etc. shots that are helpful. The kind members over in the translation section helped with the mei on one: "Tenshozan Tanrenjo saku and dated a lucky day in February 1942" and unfortunately, the owner couldn't get the mekugi out on the second. I'll probably go back with a Mekuginuki and see if I can follow up, but I also don't want to tip my hand that I'm too interested and have them jack up the price. In the meantime, I'm doing some research with Cox's "Japanese Naval Swords: Swordsmiths and Workshops", Ohmura, Dawson, the forums, and the rest of the normal literature. I'll post the photos here in the comments below shortly. I would love any thoughts. It seems that kaigunto in good polish with nice fittings are generally being sold for $1200-1800 each, but that's hard to pin down. Regardless, if I could get a package deal for less than $2000, these might be good additions, and I'd welcome any opinions. Again, I'm sorry for the lack of full overview photos.

@Rawa I’m not sure; I need to do some studying and reading. I’ll post over in the Gunto thread on it with more photos. It’s a possible purchase from a pawn shop.

Thank you very much @Conway S! I know it’s a bit gone but would you be able to make any of this tag on the saya out?

Hello all! Could I please get some help with a translation on this kaigunto?

That’s actually an interesting point, @charlesf! I think I don’t necessarily want to throw money specifically at a repro, but it’s not something I’ve looked into.

@Scogg That’s wild! I’m always interested to learn about the variances between different manufacturers. You see that with firearms during the war too. Really intriguing. I probably will pick up a copper fuchi’d one at some point, as I enjoy getting Kokura-marked things.

I couldn’t imagine finding type 3 koshirae for under $200-300, so I agree. But it could look nice. And then I’d feel less nervous about handling it if it had a tsuka at least.

I think this is a very fair point, and I recognize the financials on bringing this one back wouldn’t make sense. But I do very much like this one and have so little money into it. So going down that goose chase could be worth it from that perspective. It looks naked and wrong next to my other pieces. Assuming I don’t, what is your thought on the best way of storing it? If I keep it lightly oiled, I’m worried about putting it into one of my katana bags and ruining that. So far I’ve just had it sit on my display as a naked blade.

Anyone have recommendations on whether or not to try and get this into a koshirae? Just today, I snoozed and lose-d on buying this from Raymond over on eBay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/267248224571?itmmeta=01JYV51NR9W5BCERSD6PDAXJ1B&hash=item3e393c493b:g:o1YAAOSw9FJnbiWn I’ve also been tempted by some of the koshirae here on the forum, like this one: But I’m worried that trying to buy any saya just invites me spending money and it not fitting.

Thanks Bruce! Just another reason to hunt down a copper fuchi one to get the cool stampings

Thank you! That’s surprisingly early. Given the fittings, I would’ve taken a guess at 43 or 44. Do you know what hat the Kokura supervision entailed? Did the weapons travel down to Kokura for inspection after completion, or were there Kokura employees on site at Tokyo and Nagoya etc to finalize them after completion (my assumption)?

Longterm, I’ve wanted to add a Type 95 to my collection, but I haven’t wanted to pay the price for one. I like the shape and fittings of 94s, 97s, and 98s better. But on a local gun trader forum, an older gentleman was selling his for $500, and I shot him an offer for $425, and he accepted it. When we met up, he said he was just looking to help out a younger collector, had originally paid $450 15 years ago from Steward’s Antiques, and we chatted for a long time sitting out on his porch. Before I left, he popped back inside and came back with a silk flag and said “Take this too. It’s yours.” Very, very kind. I have a Tokyo First sword (Dawson pattern 2A). There’s a little corrosion on the blade but not much, and the sarute is broken. I don’t see any stamps on the iron fuchi. The only stamp is the final acceptance mark by the serial. I was very surprised by the sugata on this pattern once I held it in hand. The kissaki is almost a chu-kissaki, and the blade seems flimsy overall. My 97 and Zoheito are much more robust. My understanding is that at this time based on the serial below 130,000-ish, Kokura was still supervising the program? Anyone have a guesstimate for when it was produced? The books don’t seem to get into that specificity. But for paying something like 30% of the market price (with a free flag!) I can’t complain at all.

I was in the same boat! Now I’m trying to learn about the various official forges. It’s still interesting to me that this sword has the meo for the forge itself at Kokura but not the smith’s mei and therefore doesn’t follow Omura’s description. I wonder if any other arsenal forges had similarly signed swords. A fun continued research process.

Fascinating, thank you! More study for me to do!

@Kiipu Thank you! Because I can miss the obvious sometimes - you’re saying the sword here is NOT actually a Zoheito at all but a Gendaito, traditional Nihonto made in an Arsenal forge (Zoheisho) but not star stamped nor signed by the traditional smith?

@BANGBANGSAN Thank you for sharing! Fascinating to think of our swords being made so close in time together. @mecox might be interested in seeing the mei for his book. Yours looks in much nicer condition than mine. Are you able to determine if, despite the lack of star stamp, it's gendaito or not? Also, interesting to see it in those mounts instead of RS Type III mounts. That's been another thing to think through if I try and find mounts for the sword - what style would be most appropriate.

I messaged Chris Bowen, and he was kind enough to reply with additional information about his thoughts on the sword. He said that he never gives attributions when “there is nothing visible in the blade. The yasuri-me, style of nakago, and mei are all similar to Moritaka and I would suspect that he was involved in some fashion. I would suggest finding out more about Moritaka and who else worked/trained at the Kokura Arsenal; look for post war smiths as well who were trained my Moritaka. The work style is close so if it wasn't Moritaka it was likely a student.” He encouraged me to study Moritaka swords, as Moritaka was “someone with similar workmanship who also contributed to the Kokura arsenal and thus was a good starting point to research further.” He believes the sword to not be a “shobu-zukuri blade, but rather a shinogi-zukuri blade that has been abused and lost its yokote.” That’s a question I had too, so it’s nice to get an evaluation from an expert. He said that in the current polish, it was impossible to determine if the sword was showata or gendaito. I tend to agree. He mentioned sending it to a togishi to polish a window. The thought intrigues me, but I also know that polishing would be very expensive. I wonder how much a window would cost and if a quality togishi exists in the States. I worry about sending the sword overseas; if it proves to be showato, isn’t that something that can have the sword confiscated and destroyed? Does anyone have experience with getting a State-side window done? Regardless of the cost, I anticipate holding onto this sword for decades, so maybe at some point in the future it would be an option. In the meantime, a hearty thank you to Chris for the follow-on information.

Thanks, @Bruno! To my understanding from Cox's book and Ohmura's site, there's no hamon and the sword is oil quenched with a dry polishing.

Thanks, @Bruce Pennington! I've devoted more of my fun money to guns than swords over the last few years, and at the very low price for this piece, I figured the research opportunity and history and condition of the mei/nakago generally made for a good purchase. I saw that edge along the machi too and wondered. The sword was previously fitted with a really bad habaki which was too narrow. I wonder if that line is a scratch that occurred from that ill-fitting habaki.

@Kiipu, like @Nihonto Chicken, I’m checking in (even later!). I just bought the sword from @md02geist and wrote up a lengthy post about it here: https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/52642-an-interesting-if-troubled-zoheito/ . Unfortunately, there’s no star stamp on either side of the nakago. The mystery continues. And to @mecox, thank you for your absolutely wonderful book on the Fukuoka smiths. You featured my new sword's mei on page 116 and that helped push me over the edge to buy it. If you want additional photos for a subsequent edition, check out the link above or please reach out. I'd be more than happy to take any photos you want. Seriously, can't say thank you enough for your research; it's a fantastic work.

Obviously I wish the condition of the piece was better, but in the end, I am very happy to have added this to my collection. Thanks for reading!

The kissaki and missing yokote: I find the swelling of the iori-mune gorgeous: Very strong kiri yasurimi: