bluboxer

Greetings all,this is a very interesting discussion and what a great find! Perhaps it has become convention to use the term "temper" to refer to the complete process of heat treatment of nihonto and I don't want to come off as a d**k about it but this usage is technically incorrect.Tempering is done after the blade is quenched in water(hardened) in order to relieve stresses brought about by the rapid cooling of the steel.Tempering does not produce the hamon but can have subtle effects on it's appearance and the hardness/tuffness.A smith will temper immediately after hardening and will double and triple temper. A blade that has seen high heat as in a fire will have to be annealed/normalized and re-hardened by coating with clay and heating to it's eutectic point and quenched and tempered.Many times this process results in a less than satisfactory heat treat (and therefore an inferior blade) because rarely does the original smith do the re-hardening(my conjecture) and only he or some of his students will be familiar enough with his steel to replicate the original. So correct me if I'm wrong but the initial heat treatment or hardening is called yaki-ire and the tempering process is called yaki-modoshi.Maybe some one can tell me the Japanese term for repeating yaki-ire. Cheers,Alan.

Hello Justin,that is how I sized my newly made sword at approximately 3/4 to 1 in. off the floor.That doesn't matter tho for art collecting.Also stands to reason why extant katana and the use thereof were not sized for 6 footers.IMHO. Alan

Negative over. Alan

The varied responses to my query and opinions were very valuable and they are the reason I started this thread. Brian,thank you for expressing your viewpoint.It appears I have become a little jaded in my dealings with strangers(environment?).Once bitten twice shy and maybe we should heed the advice of the "big guys". Also after reading Ford's response I looked back at what I thought was a fair price (as in my earlier example) and perhaps my valuation was low.Apparently I am out of touch with the market and am expecting too much but I do not think I am overzealous (I do become soo excited tho) . However;I still feel that a seller that goes out of his way deserves a little extra for going the extra mile/km and it is a pleasure to deal with such.The mystery experts should avoid appraisals as they don't have the blade in hand and are looking at the same photos as the rest of us. Thanks again to those that replied, Cheers Alan

Thank you Brian, but I would disagree with your comparison of e-bay and a widow selling stuff in a garage sale.These are two completely different scenarios and I for one would be forthright and let the little old lady know what was at stake and even offer to hook her up with the right people(that is if I could not afford to pay her a fair price myself).That would be the righteous thing to do.However,I would find it hard to believe that little old ladies are selling swords on e-bay.Most of the sellers have real nice stories like this to tell and are just interested in moving merchandise.Some come right out and say they don't know or care to know about Japanese swords and rely on someone else to hawk their wares. I also feel that it is ok and even beneficial to the buyers when someone provides a literal translation of a mei or other inscription.If it is factual;then ok.The buyer must then decide if it is gimei or not.If it is an opinion(designed to sell or not);not ok.Many times I have seen you or some else on this board say that the value of a sword is only what someone is willing to pay for it and that board members are hesitant to chime in when it could affect the outcome of a sale.Mystery experts can have an effect on perceived value. I know that there are not any "sleepers" on e-bay and that is not what I am looking for.I only seek an honest chance of bidding without speculators influencing market conditions.The idea of "stealing" something for little money is preposterous;only the clueless would expect such on e-bay.There are hundreds of people like myself looking at these items and deciding what they would pay,is it real,is it a true nihonto and if they even have a chance of bidding high enough to win. When an e-bay seller is told that his item is a fake;does he post this in his question section?I doubt it,this would seriously affect his sale.Any negative comments or suppositions will never be posted.Only positive comments are posted by sellers. Alan

Well gentle folk,I know I am stirring up something here but I can stay silent no longer.I have seen an increase in "item informants" for lack of a better adjective on e-bay.Either a person who is fairly knowledgeable in nihonto is volunteering info or sellers are salting the mine with messages claiming that "you have a very valuable sword" or "you may not know what you have but".If this is the latter;buyer beware of spurious claims from mystery experts.If this is the former;please stop! Most; if not all, of the collectors that frequent this forum have spent hundreds and hundreds of dollars on books alone not to mention the countless hours of research and study so that we are able to discern a true sword worthy of chasing from all of the other junk.If a seller is too lazy to find out what they have or to do any research about their item then they don't deserve the extra effort or the extra $.I know this person has good intentions and even enjoys the extra research but their actions only serve to drive up prices.E-bay used to have a lot of "entry level" items that were within reach of newcomers.This is no longer true. An example;a gorgeous naginata from a couple of weeks ago.Mystery expert decides to inform everyone on e-bay how rare and wonderful this item is.It went from a nice deal at around 1800-2000 dollars to 3050 in the last 30 seconds of the auction.Understandably,this was a beautiful blade and it was sniped at the end but what if our mystery expert had said nothing.He/she surely had no intention of bidding on it.Why spoil it for everyone else? I would like to hear other opinions so;let me have it! Alan

Yes Piers,I agree with the idea of the spear tip bending instead of snapping.Especially if the troops are going to use them to hack through doors and adjust logs in the fire!A proper ass chewing would be due .Further more; in the real world not every soldier is able to execute perfect thrusts every time and other hard things(armor,bones and such) are there to deflect and damage a point.Perhaps the heat treatment should be a reflection of the geometry.A super hard edge can withstand more abuse if there is a great deal of meat backing it up.However;a long thin spear would have a greater penetration potential than one with a large cross section. Alan

Hello all,I believe I may be able to contribute my 2 cents worth concerning the hardness issue.I am positive that you can have a true hamon and still have a somewhat ductile edge or point. After a piece of steel is quenched it's hardness will be at the max for it's specific carbon content.Carbon content is a new discussion in itself so we will consider the C content of most nihonto which is in the range of approximately .6-.85 % carbon.This "as quenched" steel has a very rigid microstructure.This gives the property of high hardness yet is also very brittle.The smith returns the steel to the fire at least once and sometimes three times to "temper" the steel and remove some of this brittleness (and hardness).Most simple steels are re-heated to between 200 and 325 degrees Celsius depending on the user application. Tempering is a trade off between hardness and toughness.It is a gradual process that slowly changes the martensite(microstructure of the hamon) to other less hard microstructures (such as bainite or pearlite or a mix of the three).There will always be a certain amount of martensite remaining until the temperature of the steel reaches it's austenitizing temperature(temperature the smith takes it to for the quench).Again,this temperature will vary slightly with the steel composition and may be around 700-850 C. Many of the blades that were caught in fires and lost most if not all of there hamons were subjected to very high temperatures in excess of 1000 degrees.As the steel is heated the martensite will slowly disappear as the time and temperature increase.The smith must also be carefull when tempering so that the thinner edge does not get hotter than the rest of the blade as this could lead to a quite visible hamon at some distance from the edge and a soft edge that will not remain sharp and will readily bend. Alan

Yes Stephen,I remember seeing one of these on e-bay very recently,had not seen one before and did not think well of it.Don't even know what it sold for. Alan

Well,some "tourist" paid $4600 and some change for it.This is about the most expensive tanto I've seen go on ebay. Did the hamon not look right?What was it that makes you think it was shin shinto?This style blade goes way back. Alan

Sweet tanto-opinions?Looks to be a complete outfit. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... :IT&ih=001 Alan

This one was on ebay,really nice blade.I was in the running for a little while but ran out of breath!IMHO I think you did well,congrats. Alan M

Yes Brian,perhaps I should qualify my intent of a "study" piece.I am interested in metallurgy, construction and heat treatment methods and am hoping to gain insight as to these qualities.In fact a tired piece may well reveal techniques and character that can be seen only after they are brought to the surface.Many of the first class blades may have significant flaws (flaws that would reduce the apparent value) that lie just below the surface and will never see the light of day;do you not agree?As to this being low class,this smith was rated by Hawley at 75,so I may have "learned" a great deal. I am however,disappointed that it may well be gimei tho.It's too bad there were so many false signatures with nihonto and it takes a practiced eye to sift through them all. The next question I pose is would this smith have changed something as important as including or excluding the "Minamoto" from his mei? i.e.Could this represent one of his earliest works? Thanks again for all of your help. Alan M

Greetings all, I have acquired a tired wakizashi as a study piece and am trying to confirm my translation of the mei.My take on this mei is "Shinano no Kami Nobu Yoshi" If I have read the last character correctly,there is variance from the listed mei in my Hawley's.Minamoto was in the listed mei's where as mine has not.Both smiths that signed "Shinano no Kami" were father and son and also used the kiku.If anyone has more info on this smith or disagrees with my translation any help would be greatly appreciated.Questions I have are:what changes (aside from application of the imperial mon) would occur upon receipt of the kiku in a smiths mei?Upon receipt of the title "Kami"?How much variation would be present in a smith's signature throughout his lifetime?Of course this may also be gimei Thanks,Alan M.

Hello all, An interesting feature is the lack of this "line" on the other side of the nakago.Also the metal just looks different as to color; aside from the already mentioned yasurime.This section could have been welded onto the blade but the weld joint would have to be raised in order to file down and re-patinate the joint and if they went to this much trouble why leave an obvious division line on the side w/mei. Alan M

The blade measures 29cm edge,40cm OAL,2.5cm wide and approx. 3.5cm thick. I think I was hoping that there may have been an obvious indicator.Just being able to describe it as Koto or Shinto would be satisfying.Narrowing it down to a century or two would be even better.I would also like to send it to a Togishi to determine it's suitability for further restoration.I am adding another photo of the unfortunate nakago with it's remaining patina. Thanks,Alan M

I recently purchased my first true Nihonto and am trying to place the blade in an approximate time period.This is a tanto that was referenced on the old board by a disabled vet wanting to sell.It is unsigned and has had some bad things done to it.The nakago was cleaned with a wire wheel?Looking for a signature no doubt and it has been polished to it's limit.There is just a thin hamon left.Some of the old patina still remains.I have attempted to take images of the hada and hamon(so much harder than it would seem).I would describe the hada as a mixture of itame-masame/ayasugi.The hamon appears to be a suguba of smallish nie with multiple rows or sunagashi with nie.There seems to be some utsuri close to the nakago.The cutting edge is 29 cm.With my limited experience and literature review I want to say Kamakura period but I may be way off. Any help will be greatly appreciated, Alan M

Yes Stephen,I believe you are correct,my apologies.The blade is described as 15" cutting edge. Alan M

There is a very sweet looking tanto on ebay that has an interesting mei.If I may attempt to translate,it looks like Kinju.Could this blade date from 1319 or is this style newer? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... :IT&ih=019 Alan M