things not what they seem

[Bungo]

dudes und dudettes,

 

look Owari ?

 

6.92 x 6.85 x 0.70 (seppa dai 0.60) cm

 

May be Ono ?

Certainly not Shoami................ ko-Shoami ( may be ).

 

milt the ronin

[Pete Klein]

Hi Milt -- I really feel this piece falls into the Owari category. Now, having said that please remember that Ono and Kanayama are included in this group. Take a look at this page for a similar tsuba with Jim's explaination:

 

http://home.earthlink.net/~jggilbert/owari.htm

 

 

Your example has the dished in form with the mimi being thicker than the seppadai which Jim refers to and the theme and suguta is seen around end of Momoyama to early Edo. The metal does not appear in the pictures to have the shiny-granular look of an Ono tsuba even though the thickness is a kantei point to that school. Many of these type tsuba used to be papered to Kanayama with some probably being of that attribution. If so they will have a somewhat moulten surface from the yakite shitate finishing technique which melts the surface to create a glazed look somewhat akin to ceramics. It's very difficult to tell from pictures -- best in hand. It's a nice piece in any case.

 

This is an example attributed to Owari early Edo from the Portland Maine Museum / Libby Collection via Sotheby sale:

[Pete Klein]

Kanayama with surface 'glaze':

[Pete Klein]

another:

[Bungo]

thanks Pete,

I have seen Andy's " infamous " Kanayama( the 5k one ) and remember the feel/color..............have to compare with this example when I receive it.

 

There are many examples of Owari that turned ko-Shoami...........

 

 

milt the ronin

[Pete Klein]

But usually not with a dished in suguta.

Andy's is interesting but the surface is a bit dry to my eye and that takes away from the usual shiny look of Kanayama (which it is).

 

Now for a little heresy:

My two cents on origami/attributions etc. -- I think it's a good idea to remember that these are written 'opinions' of the shinsa teams, 'experts' or whoever and should probably not be looked upon as some sort of dogma. As evidencs accrues and learning evolves over time opinions can change. This is all part of the process and I have come to accept these as 'learning tools', just as tests in school. Use them to increase your knowledge but never take them as some form of indisputable fact except in cases (such as certain swords) which are so true to form or so well documented that there can be no question as to the validity of the attribution. Just my take on it but I've found it helps keep one's sanity in place -- at least to whatever degree it was before one found oneself immersed in this crazy field!

[Bungo]

here's the old NBTHK paper attribute.............Kanayama.

Paper dated to Showa 39th year

 

milt the ronin

[Pete Klein]

Yes, there was also the other paper which I can't remember the name of (probably because it really doesn't have much validity). I was watching the auction also but when I noticed what appears to be a pretty bad crack in the mimi I decided not to go for it.

You should submit it back to the NBTHK this fall and see what they say -- there is a discount if you return an old paper from what I've heard.

[Rich T]

I was told once by Hagihara sensei that a crack in a tsuba is regarded the same as a hargiri, and unless the guard is something extremely important or special, it will fail shinsa.

 

And yes, tokubetsu keicho to hozon is only 15,750 yen is the item passes plus non member fees.

 

Rich

[Bungo]

what crack ?

 

from the seller's description..............

" Attachment: two certificates

 

(one is Nihon Bijutsu Token Hozon Kyokai, the other is Nihon Tosogu Kenkyukai ; judged as a "Kanayama Tsuba" which was made in the Momoyama period)

 

 

 

 

 

Condition : very good

 

Damage : no major damage "

 

here's the second paper.................

 

milt the ronin

[Pete Klein]

Look at the first picture above at about the 8:30 position and then in the second at the 3:30 position. You can see it running into the sukashi if you magnify it.

[Bungo]

nothing at app. 3.30 O'clock.

 

 

milt the ronin

[Pete Klein]

I'm not sure if this will come through due to resolution issues but if you look carefully with a loupe you can see a hairline crack in the mimi:

[Rich T]

Hi Milt, I think what Pete is seeing is on the inside of the mimi, not the outside. Hard to say for sure, but I can see the area's he is referring to. You will know when in your hot little hands of course.

 

Rich

[Bungo]

being impatient like I am , I sent ole po a question.................

 

and the answer............... " Dear sir,

I confirmed it again, there is no crack.

I will upload several large photos on my flickr page soon, so please wait for a moment. "

 

so what's the opinion on the second paper ( not the nbthk one )? I like them as they say more about the item than the NBTHK which don't really tell you anything other than the attribution.

 

milt the ronin

[Rich T]

LOL I have been told they are worth less than the green NBTHK papers, but then that is always just opinion, and usually based on the monetary value placed on the item and or kanteisho. As they both say Kanayama, I would think it is probably Kanayama, it is certainly Owari as Pete said.

 

I agree in regards to the amount of info, they remind me of the old Tokuno papers, a veritable book of information usually.

 

Rich