Lindley

Brian, Not an isolated opinion I’m afraid. I wish you all the luck in the world saving every sword you can. Truly I do.

Greetings Klee, You’ve actually entered the thread just as I’m finished with it. I am apparently just an old romantic historian who doesn’t belong here. It’s been made very clear that titles are just titles and the men who held them were nothing but artists that are better forgotten to history. But hey! The swords are cool! Later!

By "research" you probably mean reading books or the internet, and the resulting statement above is kind of .... Its something who might own Suketaka would come up with. Because Suketaka did not pioneer or spearheaded much if anything, both he and Masahide at first followed Sukehiro, only Masahide essentially made Sukehiro forging the arch-nemesis of all good and noble in swords, continuing to more Soshu or Bizen inspired works, Suketaka remained where he was... Hello Rivkin, My most sincere apologies as I was unaware of any other way to obtain knowledge except through extensive research through many different sources, yes including books and the internet, but as always I cross reference all material I can find and ask questions on sites such as this. If that bothers you, it is a personal problem. And just for the record, I do not own any genuine samurai swords, so I don’t own Suketaka. Now, I understand your position that he didn’t spearhead anything. I would ask where you learned that information. If I could read that document, it would definitely have an impact on my own opinion on the matter. Which is all this is. So relax.

Hello Jussi, Disappointment is part of the game with history. One I am very familiar with. But even lesser known smiths can be recognized in today’s world as performing exceptional works of deadly art. I think the thing that bugs me so much is that if a lordship was no big deal then why get it? Also the fact that Suketaka was one of the big players in the Shinshinto revolution (which the Japanese took/take very seriously) and made the sword that Frye owns. But it’s here, alive and well, even now. That sword meant something to Suketaka, more than the other swords I’ve seen, 4 of which are already Japanese treasured objects by your own admission. This sword falls right in the middle of all of it. The revolution, the no Kami title, all of it. It all happened in 1798….when this sword was made. I really could care less what its monetary value is to collectors, I’m thinking about what that could mean for Japanese history. Nihonto history, the thing we all love. Please forgive my passion on the subject, but if it means something to Suketaka, than it means something to history.

Hello Brian, I wouldn’t call it bothered per se. As a history buff of 35+ years I come across something every now and then that just sticks with me. For some reason. I may not even be aware of what it is, but it feels like we are missing something here. Potentially important to Japanese history. But I am new to this part of the history arena, so I may be wrong. But I must inform all of you that until this sits right with me, I CAN’T leave it alone, it’s not in my DNA. If it is too bothersome of a subject, I can happily move on and leave things as they be. I don’t want to be a nuisance.

Hey Steve, upon doing further research the impression I am getting is that due to the fact that Suketaka was operating out of Osaka and had already earned a reputation, that likely got him the financial backing from the local daimyo required to become a no Kami elect. However, research shows that in this particular time period in Edo at the beginning of the Shinshinto revolution that he and Masahide where spear heading (Suketaka the hammer of the West, and Masahide the philosopher of the East.) One was the word, the other the living way. Suketaka was producing blades of such high quality it earned him his title. But there would have had to have been some physical proof for the imperial decree to go through. Which we all know it did. So I am again in the difficult place of being unsure of its exact importance. I wonder if Frye has researched any of this. I’ll ask him at some point. It’s the timing of this swords birth that has me so interested. Not just the rock star who made it out of sand, fire, and will power.

Many of the other smiths were order in later dates after Suketakas death, and there were a lot of them. 60+ by my count. So I know it was fairly common. But none were the Hammer of the West. Only Suketaka had that title, as well as the Sensai of Osaka for his many students. Many of which became famous in their own right.

Accurate. They were the ones who stood out in my research as well. I’m no expert either so no worries on not knowing all the exact dates. That would be most impressive. It just seems odd to go through the trouble and expense for a title that means nothing. Many things about the Edo period seem strange to my foreign eyes, so that is no surprise.

Sorry. 4 in 1789 not 1798. My typo and apologies.

P.S. I went through the list of titles that Brian provided the link for and of all the names on the document 6 were lorded in the Kansei era. Only 6. 4 in 1798 at the start of the Shin-Shintō revolution and 1 the following year in 1790. Only Suketaka was lorded in 1798. Not of any serious importance. Just not as common as I was expecting based on responses to my question.

Greetings, Thank you all for the information. I wasn’t under the impression or suggesting that his lordship gave him any power. That was very clear from the beginning. I am simply a student of history, and at this time specifically by interest, Japanese history. What I was really curious of is what makes certain (or any) swords from Japan of any importance? It seems, by your explanations of the time period, that these men were nothing more than artists with frivolous titles that mean nothing to history. Seems counterintuitive to your mission to save as many as you can to call them unimportant historically wouldn’t you say?

Sabiji, So in order to have better access to the nobility he would have gone through the lengthy and expensive process of become and “honorary” lord? It is also my understanding that by having the title it allowed him to increase his prices for his work. Do you know of any other benefits he would claim with his title? And if the no Kami title was not as standard as previous era, does it make his lordship of more or less importance? I know it doesn’t matter all that much, but I’m curious if why they would go through the trouble.

Steve, Thank you for that link, very interesting and informative. I see now what you were saying about how many “variables” there are. I have saved that website to further explore at a later date. I really appreciate the help. I will pay it forward. Take care for now.

Greetings, I do not disagree on the point that Fryes sword may not hold any historical significance, it is its very existence that I find fascinating. I can only imagine the skill it took to make such a blade. So not a big deal, and not important really doesn’t compute for me. I do understand your position however. I am new to the Nihonto world and joined because I want to learn how to do things right, not the easy way. So forgive any ignorance on my part, as stated in previous posts I am here to better educate myself on the policies, processes and politics involved in ancient samurai culture and swordsmiths.

Steve, Thank you very much for the information. Very helpful. The research I had done previously to our discussion had placed the title he received as something of historical importance. A shinshinto masterpiece of sorts. Based on the information I have received in the past couple of days seems to paint a much different (still extremely interesting) story about the history as it was, not as it reads. This is why I love history though. It has many twists and turns. So to clarify, even if it did represent his Nagato no Kami submission piece, to history it is just one of Ozaki Suketakas best examples? Is there a book I can get that has all this information in it? Thanks again.

I agree that something had to be done. If a professional polish was out of the budget, I fail to see any other alternatives other than to do the best you can. I would think it better than it dying completely. I applaud the effort. Just saying.

Just a curiosity really. It’s my inderstanding that in the politics of the late edo period that a requirement for lordship was the forging of a piece proving his worth as a lord. A resume of sorts. It was standard policy of the time that there was an 8 month Audit period from the time of his shogunal selectee for Nagato no Kami elect to his official imperial decree later that year. He would have been in a professional limbo of sorts, not a commoner and not a lord. The timing on this sword is just very…..appropriate.

Hello all, The reason I am asking about the date is because the sword that Frye posted has a Kansai 10 date I do believe. Can anyone confirm that it is in fact that date. If it is, wasn’t that Suketakas promotion year? What does that entail for its possible historical prominence?

Hello Giordy, oh, okay. I was informed by Mike Yamasaki that the date of his lording was in the 19th day of the 10th month of Kansai 10. I was just hoping to verify that. So 1789. Ok. Thank you.

Greetings, first and foremost, thank you for the correction in my wording. However, since you already seem to grasp the meaning of my inquiry, I ask that you forgive my improper wording. I’m new here. Literally my first post. So thank you for pointing that out but you failed to answer my question. Is it common or not? I appreciate any useful information you can provide. I am also still curious about Suketakas’ promotion year. An exact date would be wonderful, but a year would suffice. Thank you all again.

Furthermore, does anyone know exactly what date he was promoted to Nagato no Kami? I’ve heard anywhere from 1798-1801. Thank you for any information you can provide.

Hello everyone, im just curious based on the Kansai 10 date signature. Was it common for Suketaka to produce swords with no month or date on them? Also did he frequently etch in Gengoemen on his earlier pieces?