Firstdive

Thanks, this was the answer I was looking for. Sorry if I annoy you all, I allways need some more explaination. I´m reading at the moment "Connisseurs Book of Japanese Swords" and the translator mentions in his Intro, often a wrong answer (here question) provides often more insight for the Person learning, then the right answer. Honestly I thought, it`s more towards 80.000 Smiths, but since @Jacquesposted the Book about the relationships between Smiths, I thought, when this data is allready availabel, it could be done as open source Community Project, and the less important smiths/schools/Regions, would be recognizable through inheritance. And more famous smiths which are well documented, would make up the foundation. Also in my mind there was a outline of a Sword, and as the features got entered, it changes it´s look, according to the detected things. Possibly with a slider which could show the variance of for example Hada, or Hamon Patterns. Eventually little pictures inside the entryfields, so there is a visible representation. And without seeing the List I never tought only with features entered into a Form, there is only one specific smith as answer, more a List of more of more or less likely smiths/eras/Regions/schools. I got also the idea the wider Range like Era/School/Region, is mostly given by more visible elements, like shape, Hamon type, Kissaki, Boshi and so on...oversimplified But I never even thought about building this database, cause I fully know, I have no clue, but I also thought, only here in this Forum, are so many competent and engaged People they possibly love building a centralized database, it must be even easier together with other enthusiasts around the world. It was only a mind game for finding a Solution that helps me getting the answers for my Problem and eventually some others could use it too. And I hope I offend nobody in here, but this Nihonto thing is a bit dusty, so I thought, lets ask why it`s never been done. Thanks for all your insights!

For sure this would never eleminate the examination of a Sword, but it would help everyone a lot, to narrow down, what smith it was. And my intend is`t to verify anything for granted, it´s more for those, like me, and people which doesen`t have a whole bibliothek in their Heads, who just want to know, what Smith made his (with room for errors), and also getting easier access to where to find information for comparison. And even your example applies to some pieces, in some others, like I mentioned, like the trader bought it as Mumei, from a not so well known Smith (who doesn`t know about getting involved in such a thing) and signed it, it will still have the features of the orignial Smith. Eventually there are some peices out there sigend as Gimei but only nobody cares about them, Swords from rather great Smiths could even never be recognized. With this Table, Sword with certain propperties could be found and sent in for further examintation. Only sitting down and identify every feature step by step, would be a amazing lesson for every beginner. I´m really a noob, but only the shear amount of Gimei, couldn`t mean almost every second smith was a Copy Cat. And in my situation, my Mei was a pretty obviously Gimei (at least for everyone here in this Forum ), so if the smith´s intention was to make a copy, he either didn`t Copy the Mei well and made the Sword only from descriptions, or someone else, for what ever reason signed it, and therefore the smith should/could eventually be identified by his features!? And shoulden`t that apply for most Gimei? At least for my sword this must be true, since most of you who checked it, guessed it to be late Muromachi, which must mean it has features which only appeared about 200 years later!? Honestly, I don`t know if I would appreciate a Sword from such a great craftsman, like the mentioned Kajihei, who was able to copy every master in such perfection, even more than probably some of the originals Probably Gimei needs his own category in Nihonto Kind regards

Hi, It´s not so much anymore about the Smith discussed here, in my case it´s a Gimei Kagemitsu, I understand that, but, I meant also things like, Hada Pattern, Typ of Hamon, Kissaki, Boshi and all other things that where used to identify the Smith. I watched the Video about Kantei from @Markus, and he described it as 3 Steps. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1C7Z69GQAE It´s also not that hard (for a experienced Person, not me ) to identify a Mei, or better identify a Gimei, of a smith, wich has a signature on it. But if it`s a Gimei, from a point of identification, I would more consider it as Mumei, and my goal would be to find out who the real Smith was. Almost like a Kantei. Even in regards to Dai-Mei, it would help, since the realtions of the smiths where already represented in this Spreadsheet. Since it looks like a Fact, in old Japan was more Product Piracy than these days from China ;-),there are more Gimei then real Mei, and mine is for sure Gimei, only checking the Mei would help nothing. I also got told, if the Smith worked in someone elses Tradition it´s impossible to identify, what I fully understand, but I also got told, that often Traders (or better traitors )signed the Swords, and this would mean, the blade was made how the original Smith had done it. Are people in here not interested on the original Smith, once it`s a Gimei? I heard also about removing the wrong signature for shinsa, but I want to have my Sword as it is :-) But also the other way around, it has a Mei, and with this Table, it should be easier to find the corosponding properties, and also resources for comparison, which should be seen on a authentic piece. It would also get a lot easier to find the right places to look, like which book, magazin, website, has information to exactly this smith. It would also be a really nice app...first Kantei app^^

Ok...since I came into this Nihonto science, I thought it´s very choatic, but for me it seems this is only cause eveything is in Books, wich is fine, I love books, but it`s very hard to find even an index of the Token Bijutsu, in which issue, which Nihonto is appriciated. Also as a beginner which only has a Gimei Katana, who wants to know more about it, it`s almost impossible to even come close to a valid answer. Am I wrong, or would a Table/Spreadsheat/Database, which holds every smith and his corresponding properties, and possible variations, could help a lot to find fitting smiths? For example, within the search mask, everybody could enter, Sori, shape, messurements, Boshi Type, Nakago details and so on. The more features entered, the shorter gets the list of possible Smiths. Eventually combined with Links, Pictures, and references to Books with recognized originals of this Smith. It would be also a great learnig source and centralization of knowledge thats otherwise almost impossible to get. Do I oversimplify things here?

ok, nice to know! Where can I find that?

Incredible for what things to look for, and next to that I think there is a lot of ancestry and history knowledge neccessary, to even know wich one has even the possibility of a Dai-Mei. Is it believed they did that for the reason to differentiate from the Master? Or in other Words, was that common for every/most Dai-Mei? Are there tables wich represent the actual believed ancestrys, and connections of ancient Smiths?

I fully believe that. Are these minor diffrences or is it pretty visible a student has signed it? When such a Sword gets to NBTHK, is it requiered to send proof of that, to get the certificaton?

Thanks! I haven`t seen that, and all the other treasures in there

Thanks @Jacques for pointing that out! I would never have seen that, or better I would have told myself this is variation. But it looks like, I´m missjudging the precision of these ancient Smiths massivly

Hi..again, I searched this Forum about a Guide or something similar, for taking Pictures of a Nihonto. Setup, Lightning for different purposes, ideal Lenses etc. Am I too stupid, or does anyone of you knows a good recource for this subject? Thanks in advance Jörg

Thanks @Rawa :-)

Hi together, Sorry for my late reply, I wasn`t expecting that much :-) Thanks for all your efforts. This helps me a lot, and is a great learning resource. Almost a little like a community, online Shinsa But with a lot more information. With all this resources, thanks @CSM101, it`s easy to see, where the difference in Boshi is. And I could also just see the different spacing between the Kanji after @Jacques mentioned it. This really helps to get the neccesary feeling where to look, and how close it has to be. Can you say something about the quality or age of the Blade, since obviously there are alomst no not Gimei Swords coming to the west, this looks like the only way to own and study a at least authentic Katana!? Best wishes to everyone Jörg PS: How can I reffer to a user? (solved)

Hi, Here is a Katana wich is described as Tadahiro 肥前國住近江大掾藤原忠廣. For me it looks pretts legit. I compared the Mei with items I found online https://www.sothebys.com/en/buy/auction/2024/art-of-Japan/a-hizen-katana-signed-hizen-kuni-ju-omi-no-daijo https://www.christies.com/en/lot/lot-4461872 Can someone Help me please?

Thanks a lot for all your very nice help! You gave me a more realistic estimation of the Sword without shattering my Heart. I understand now, getting a uncertified Sword espacieally from Japan, can`t be a Masterpeice, but for me this was an important point to meet, since from China had me even think more about what it really is, and from the US would mostly mean it`s likely came there through WW2. I can now appriciate the Sword for what it really ist, rather then thinking what it possible could be. Great Community here!

I fully believe everyone, and it doesn`t change how much I like it. But what Points indicate that? 1. The Mei doesn`t look probably Chisseled and 2. is on the wrong side of the Nagako (3.) Since it`s from Japan, it´s not realistic to believe it`s not already Judged and for the sake of learnig, is there more? but, the remaining Parts of the Sword are looking like an Original Kagemitsu should look? Can I see it as an antique Replica, like a good, antique Copy of, for example an Van Gogh, wich has the signature in the upper left corner? Made about in the 16th Century?

Thanks a lot for the Pictures, it`s really hard to get good ones, and I can see now the difference At least someone, also not too bad, tried to make a real copy, and not only chisseld a famous name on an piece of Junk. A lot better than a "Kill Bill" Replica

ok, it could be worse :-) If it`s a Gimei, it makes no sense to send it to Japan for NBTHK, but since you suggest it`s still an old Blade, is there a way to determine, roughly, how old it really is? I love to think about the ages it´s gone through, and I want to tell people the truth if I someone asks.

So the only concern you have, is the same as I have...It´s simply too good to be true?

Thanks for your reply! Yes, I knew about that, as I mentioned above, but as I also noted in you Link, wich is close to the one I was reading on NBHTK-AB, he Changeded the direction he chisseled his signature, after working together with some other Smiths (Different ones, Depending on where you read about him), and also the tipping Point from Tachi to Uchi-Katana was exactly at this time, and he was a Leading Swordsmith, wich means for me, doing things first and beeing innovativ, I thought, it could be possible... ?

Hi Brian, Thanks a lot for your fast reply. It´s great to hear it´s at least an antique, wich is the most important Part for me :-) So, do you think it`s worth the Work and Time sending it back to Japan for an NBHTK Shinsa? It would be hard after all that, giving it again away for months. I thought also about what you said, no great Sword is leaving Japan without checking it some where, but after everything was done, and I had the Sword in my Hands, I told the Seller I knew abot the Risk, and I wouldent blame him if he sold a known gimei, but he answered me he doesn`t know anything wrong about it. He seemed honnest but also doesn`t mean someone else check it before. The Registration Card, I Uploaded, is the original Picture from the seller, I got only a copy, and as far as I know, everything was done Propably. It needed to get de Deregistration from The Japanes Cultural Administration, and went through normal Customs Process.

Hi, I´m new here. I got a Katana, and it says it`s from Bishu Osafune Jyu Kagemitsu, and February 1330 I tried my very best to find an obivious mistake, with "Connisseurs Book of Japanese Swords" and the Internet, and my very unexperienced me,couldnt`t find any. Nagako, Kissaki, Hamon and even the Bo-Bi with high ending Maru-Dome, (the same as on the Books front Cover, wich is from Nagamitsu, who shared this ending with Kagemitsu, Backside would have been a Kagemitsu but the engraving makes comparing hard) looks right. I checked the Hada Pattern with a 10x Magnifier, and for my eye also this seems right, but again unexperienced, hard to see and never seen a Katana in real. The only thing that concernes me, is the Side where the inscription was made. It´s made as a Katana..Wich I heard Kagemitsu always signed his as Tachis, but on the other Hand it`s a late work of him, who knows... :-P If you judge my Pictures, please be nice, since it`s almost a Livelong dream of me, and I never thought about getting one, and espacially, not such a great one. I knew the risk when I bought it, and honestly it looks too good for a 700 Year old piece, but it would at least make a little crack to my heart if it is indeed a Fake. The Blade is 64 cm, Total Lenght 92 cm, Sori 1.1cm Thanks in advance for your help Jörg