peluche399

when I read bar exam I did a head slap....lol that's why!!lol, don't over think the process.

Like Stephen I have had that same epiphany when bar exams were mentioned.

Hahaha, that obvious huh? :lol: I do quite like to nail things down...I must admit.

One day, I plan to go to Japan and see swords across the country. I am actually learning Japanese in the hopes that by showing that I went through the effort of learning the language and customs it will show that I have respect for the culture and perhaps it will get me into some doors that might otherwise be closed (such as some treasures held in shrines that are not normally displayed). Either way, there are the main museums in Japan to see plenty of amazing examples.

Perhaps what I am most curious about is why some elements are preferable. Certainly, that is obvious with things like voids and flaws but not so clear with others. I know to some extent it may be purely aesthetic but I'm sure some traits show quality forging, but what are those sorts of traits and why do they show quality work?

One example, from my very limited knowledge of metallurgy, the strongest form (next to a perfect crystal which is impossible) is a perfect random mixture. So, for example, in the hada, is it preferable to be very uniform because this shows consistency and therefor a high degree of randomness which is therefor stronger? This is all conjecture, mind you. Also, I do know at the very least a very uniform Hada is very very beautiful and is almost obvious, to a certain extent, when one sees it.

Thanks guys, it seems like taking longer strides forward requires some hands on experience. If any of you live in the southeast let me know, I'll buy you a steak dinner in return for a bundle of questions and a look at a blade! :D

Swords are 3-d with detail that can't be captured well in photos. Get to some sword shows or find someone local who can mentor you.

Shame I dont live in WI anymore...I assume you live there with your location listed :D .

I will be moving to SC in a few weeks. Next sword show anywhere close to me is the Tampa show next February...and I will be taking the SC Bar Exam on the monday after that show so there's no way I can go sadly. Tell me SC is secretly a hub for collectors of Nihonto...

It's a signed blade by a well ranked smith in excellent condition with koshirae also in excellent condition. The other, an unsigned, out of polish, train wreck. Isn't it fairly obvious by inspection?

 

Have a look at a few dozen high quality swords and you should begin to see a pattern, literally. The shape will be pleasing, forging will be tight and flaw free, the hamon bright and active,, the nakago well finished. Look at 20 or so Japanese dealer websites at their more expensive merchandise and I think you will begin to see what quality is about. I think you already know what it isn't....

Hmm, perhaps I'm going about this the wrong way. Forgive me, I'm just trying to find a better way to learn some of the things which I dont seem to be able to get out of the books (at least the ones I have).

I agree, I do seem to be able to "know it when I see it". When it is a fine blade, the hada is beautiful, almost in a natural way, like wood or cells, it seems to be less like metal and much less like anything made by a hand. The Hamon is beautiful with good activity but is still regular. The shape is pleasing with sharp and perfect lines. My problem is articulating all of this. I saw a Sukezane which was on the market for most of a year (selling for about a quarter of a million dollars) which was Tokubetsu Juyo Token. Even at that time, knowing very very little (before I ever bought any books on the subject) I knew it was absolutely beautiful, breathtaking, even more than a sword selling for tens of thousands. But why? I want to put a name to it...to put a modicum of science to it. maybe thats a futile effort.

And again, maybe this is just a poor comparison (I was trying to start with an easy one where differences would be obvious). Perhaps I should compare a sword worth $90,000 to a sword worth $150,000 and try to determine what makes one "better" than the other in that case.

Ok ok, so lets skip straight to the comparison. Here is what I was going to propose as the second example. Lets look at this one and you can tell me what makes it better than the first (other than what I can see).

This sword commands 40 times the price of the first. Part of that will undoubtedly be due to its koshirae (which are beautiful) and its polish, but what makes it a better blade?

I see a very nice midare with a fine itame hada that seems very regular. Very nice Kissaki with no yokote. Patina on the Nakago seems very even and indicates some age. The quality of the Mei looks good.

You see, I can tell you some basics about a sword. I can tell you a bit about the hamon and ha etc. but I cant really say what makes one better than another or why.

Spoiler again for source (these pictures are not mine):

Thanks guys. What makes this sword great? What makes it better than the first?

Andres G>

So my last thread opened quite the can of worms (or perhaps explosives).

So perhaps this is a better learning exercise. This blade has an (almost extremely) low price. Certainly it is badly in need of polish but what else about this sword makes it inferior? I wont provide other information so as not to skew the interpretation. To that end I won't make it obvious where these are from but these pictures are not my own, the site where you can find them is in the spoiler below.

Basic dimensions: Nagasa: 18", Nakago: 5 1/8", Mihaba: 1 1/4", Sakihaba: 7/8", Kasane: 1/4", Sori: 3/8"

What I see:

-badly in need of polish, some nicks in the blade, one that is rather large (probably too large to be fully polished out)

-Mumei although the patina seems natural and indicates a reasonable amount of age, yasurime seem good, some kind of glue or something though...

-No koshirae worth considering (there was a saya in terrible condition but nothing else and so I have omitted it)

-Seems like a sugaha hamon, Ko-mokume hada? hard to tell

-one worrying sign, it seems that there is little or perhaps no yokote on the left side of the sword?

So what other features make this blade inferior? Is it merely that it is badly in need of polish with no koshirae at all? I do not see many fatal flaws although the pictures are not great, at least this means there are no flaws which are large or obvious enough to be clear in bad pictures. In either case, would it be worth the cost of the polish? What are your thoughts on the blade overall?

Later I hope to compare this to another sword for the sake of pointing out differences but I did not want this one post to be too long. I wanted to get a good feel for this one, then I will compare it to a higher quality blade for the sake of hopefully learning more about what differences there are, why they would be and what makes them better.

Thanks

Andres G.

Hi Andres,

 

You might already be familiar with these websites but they do have some real swords that are out of polish and may give you some pointers.

 

http://www.japanesesword.com/

 

http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/catalogue.html

 

Kind regards,

I did NOT know of these two sites! Thank you, this is very informative for me!

Hi Andres,

We need to see pictures. Once we do there's a 90 some percent chance that most of us will know immediately what you have. The other few percent chance we'll argue a bit whether it is a fake or just a very poorly made, late war sword, in which case who cares.

Grey

Oh with everything taken as a whole, my eyes would say that it is extremely unlikely that this blade is anything but junk. Even if it wasnt just an out and out fake it would still be a very poorly made (or very badly tortured) sword and absolutely not be worth the money to polish. This is primarily a learning exercise. If say you went to a show or to an antiques store and saw something you thought might be real, what would you look for if the polish was very bad?

Thanks for the responses guys, I will get some pictures for you next time I have a chance to photograph the sword.

Andres G.

Andres,

 

Here is a link at the top of the page

 

http://jssus.org/nkp/fake_japanese_swords.html

 

Regards,

Hoanh

Thank you Hoanh, I had seen that little guide long before I ever even knew about this forum! (as a hilarious side note related to those, I bought a sword when I was in my early teens...it had a hamon which was actualy stamped onto the blade! Thats right, it was a 3D hamon :lol: )

Unfortunately, not all cases are as clear cut as those examples (or my stamped hamon example). In the case of my sword, none of the clear tell-tale signs of a fake are there. Of course, it does not look like the examples of Nihonto provided either but nor would a nihonto in poor polish, in a functional polish or which was badly rusted.

Perhaps I should rephrase my question from another point of view. What do you look for in a sword which is badly in need of a new polish? Examples of swords out of polish would be tremendously helpful if anyone knows where to find some.

Andres G.

It's usually all in the nakago....

 

And experience.

 

Brian

Lightning response :lol:

Certainly, experience is a huge amount of it. I can already spot issues with fakes much more easily than I once could.

As for Nakago, my example may again be a good one for the "borderline case". There is a Mei, I do not recall the name of the smith but it was dated to 1929 if memory serves. There are yasurime. There is some rust but the sword is not tremendously old, nor do I have the skill level to accurately identify rust.

What else do you look for?

Andres G.

My first post, Ive read quite a bit here and have read quite a bit in general but I am always looking to learn as much as possible.

So some Nihonto are clear, you know it when you see it!

If I look at this, there is certainly no question, everything is there (and its beautiful).

http://www.nihonto.com/AraIchi.html

But some arent so clear.

I have a sword which I would say is almost certainly a fake, but could it simply be in very bad condition. Sadly I cant take pictures, as the sword is currently at my father's home but I will give you a run down.

My thinking is that it could be possible that this sword was a real sword, nothing of tremendous value, that had been found rusted beyond hope and was filed down and sharpened by a mentally handicapped ape with no arms.

Why I think it COULD be real:

-No obvious etching or fake hada

-shape (zori etc) is mostly there, kissaki is somewhat well formed

-polish is awful, uneven and doesnt allow for any of the activity of the blade to be seen (if there was any). It is possible an amateur without appropriate tools tried to bring the blade back into polish. Niku is very very thin making me think perhaps it was very badly rusted and a lot of material was removed to get rid of the rust.

Why its probably fake:

-Niku is probably far too thin

-overall width of the blade (ha to mune, i forget the term) is too narrow

-koshirae are bizarre, cobbled together and mostly terrible. Seems likely Tsuka and saya were from another sword. Tsuka wrap was hilariously wrong (like really, it made you laugh).

-blade is uneven as in small variations in the edge, shinogi and surfaces which should be perfectly straight and even. Is this possibly the result of a terrible polish?

-kissaki seems too short

So, Im not trying to make an argument that I found a bottom dollar treasure, I would be nearly certain that it is a poor chinese fake. However, nothing I can point to says to me "this shows that it is absolutely a fake". More importantly, if in a situation like this where the polish is terrible (or say it is badly rusted), how can one tell nihonto in terrible condition from a fake? Perhaps there are signs one look for? Its hard to find examples of Nihonto in bad condition, only ones in fairly good condition.

Just a learning exercise, thank you all!

Andres G.