Ratill

Your Levine suggestion is very tempting but since the appraisal cost is as much as I paid for the knife, I'll have to think about it. Curiosity may get the better of me, though. If I do go through with it, I just hope that the information provided will answer the questions I have posed in this thread. I'll let everyone know what I found out. I also have many very good quality keris and from what I have read, keris were worn and used as civilian weapons. Although hilts were sometimes glued in place. they were most commonly secured by a strip of cloth wound around the tang to provide a tight fit to the hilt. The resulting friction fit is tight enough as long as the blade is not subjected to much torque force. In a fight however, the user would be well advised to choke up on the blade to keep it from twisting. Since I have never seen a keris without pecitan, there is probably general agreement among makers and users that the feature is necessary. An asymmetrical grind on a 20th century blade showing western influence is, as far as I know, something exclusive to the Philippines. I am not certain how well received it would be anywhere else. For example, I have a reasonably large collection of "Philippine Bowies" made throughout the Northern Philippines just after the war for sale to US troops. In every instance save one, the blades are symmetrically ground. And, since I grew up in the US during the 50's-60's, I can say that I never saw an asymmetrically ground knife for sale and I don't think the typical American man of that time period would think of buying one even if it were available. I could certainly accept Philippine production of my knife for post war sale to tourists and US servicemen were it not for two things. None of the aforementioned "Philippine Bowies" that I have (or have seen) appear to have been factory made. The other thing of course is the presence of Japanese characters on the blade. I don't see this blade as being cut down and repurposed from a larger blade. The blade width (1.0625" [about 2.6cm]) is about right for the current length. The spine is 9/64" (3.571mm) thick. If the blade had been appreciably longer, it was either mighty thin for its length to begin with or was ground down on the flat side. Grinding would have been too much work for this piece I think. Sincerely, RTillman

Piers D, I tried repeatedly but couldn’t get a better shot. Even under hand lens magnification the character inside the diamond is unclear. It appears to have been badly stamped. Sorry. Brian, Member Ed thought that the Shanghai dagger was similar enough to mine to bring it to my attention and the examples I saw online looked similar enough to my dagger for me to believe it could have been inspired by the Shanghai dagger. The conundrum I find with my knife boils down to two things that should be mutually exclusive: 1, the asymmetrical grind (one side beveled/one side flat) and 2, the Japanese blade stamp. I collect mainly from South East Asia, the Pacific (especially Philippines and Indonesia), the Indian subcontinent, and North Africa. I have been collecting for many years, and while I know that there are other asymmetrically ground blades around the world (eg the Chinese bat jam dao and the Assam region Katchin dao) they are, save for in the Philippines, few and far between. Furthermore, these non-Philippine examples are all traditional blade forms that predate the 20th century. My knife is plainly a 20th century style that shows western influence, has an asymmetrical grind, and carries Japanese blade stamps. It doesn’t add up. The presence of an asymmetrical grind on a western influenced 20th century blade disqualifies it for anywhere else but the Philippines. You won’t find that combination of features in Thailand, Malaysia, Brazil or anywhere else. If we contend that the blade was made in the 1950’s-60’s we then have to explain the presence of Japanese characters on a blade especially made for a country where cultural and economic factors (as I have previously described) argue against acceptance of anything Japanese. Given the Japanese government’s strict knife and sword regulations, I can’t believe domestic sale of a fighting knife would be allowed (whether it be for tourists, visitors, or anyone else). It is also hard for me to accept that an asymmetrical blade would be sold as a souvenir item unless that type of blade was culturally relevant to the country selling it. You have stated that, “No serious fighting knife would have the handle able to turn in the hand”. Actually, save for the very archaic keris buda, all Indonesian keris have a rat tail tang which can allow the blade to turn in the hilt. In fact, there are two indents on the base of all keris blades called pectin. These indents are there to accommodate the thumb on one side and the index finger on the other to pinch the blade and keep it from turning during use. I very frequently see keris for sale with the hilt on backward. If interested in buying one, I always see if I can turn the hilt. If I can’t, that means it has been glued on in the wrong position (possibly with epoxy which is a disaster). The wood of the hilt on my knife is, as you say, “a simple turned one, easy to make” but it is also very well done and of very good wood. There is nothing tourist or souvenir about any of the components. Most probably, the wood and ferrule on my knife had originally been glued with some sort of cutler’s resin which simply failed after so many years. If my blade was repurposed, it was repurposed from another asymmetrically ground blade. Sincerely, Tillman

Brian, From what I have read online, the Fairbairn-Sykes dagger was developed from the Shanghai dagger. Is this incorrect? I wouldn’t know because my knowledge of Fairbairn-Sykes is almost nil and I only learned of the existence of the Shanghai dagger in this thread. In any event, my knife looks a lot closer to the Shanghai dagger than does the Fairbairn-Sykes. While I agree with you that postwar production is certainly a possibility, I also think that wartime production is equally plausible. Although, as you state, there may have been “literally thousands of assorted knives made for commercial sale in the 50's and 60's from small factories”, I have never seen a factory made, name branded knife from the 50’s or 60’s sold in the US that was beveled on one side and completely flat on the other. Perhaps you could provide examples of same? (Name and model numbers would be helpful for further online research.) I am equally unaware of any foreign, factory made, and name branded knives sold in the US in the 50’s or 60’s that weren’t stamped with country of origin. There are a wide variety of northern Philippine knives that are beveled on one side and flat on the other. However, given the the residual anger in the Philippines over the Japanese occupation, would there have been a large enough market in the Philippines for the Japanese to export knives there in the 50’s and 60’s (especially for blades stamped with Japanese characters)? Also keep in mind that this is not a general purpose household knife. It is plainly a fighter. So, taking into account the relative economic status of both countries in the 50’s and 60’s, would a Japanese factory have been able to produce a niche knife at a price point competitive with local Philippine blacksmiths? Lastly, wouldn’t a country of origin stamp be required for the Philippines as it was in the US? There is one thing I am absolutely certain about. The entire hilt is original to the piece. The grooves on the wooden section echo the grooves on the steel ferrule and the groove on the steel pommel. The pommel and steel guard are very solidly in place and It would have been impossible to replace the wooden section without first removing the pommel. Since the ferrule and the wooden section revolve freely around the tang, I find it very unlikely that someone careful enough to reattach the guard and pommel so firmly would be sloppy enough to replace the wood section and the steel ferrule so loosely. The wooden section was professionally turned. This is no happy homeowner job. The grooves are sharply and precisely cut. The wood is very hard and completely without figure. It appears to be some sort of boxwood. Sincerely, RTillman

Piers D, I have the same “Japanese” feeling about the characters and logo as you do but, given my slight knowledge of things Japanese, my impressions don’t count for much (if anything). I too looked online for information but all I came up with was a lot of currently made chef’s knives being advertised as “Tokusai”. While post war manufacture (whether early or late) is certainly possible, I think that the cultural and economic issues I mentioned before argue against it. That’s why I suspect that the knife was made during the war. If made during the war, commandeered factories in Japanese occupied Taiwan or Shanghai are certainly plausible manufacturing sites. Ed, You may be on to something. Prior to this, I had never heard of a Shanghai dagger but the examples I found online look very close to what I have. It is entirely possible that my dagger is the Japanese take on the Shanghai dagger just as the Fairbairn Sykes is the British interpretation. Sincerely, RTillman

Piers D, Thank you for your help. I had previously been told what the characters meant but my informant said that he got the information via Google AI and didn’t consider the source reliable. It is very good to get trustworthy confirmation. Could you elaborate when you say the dagger looks “typical” to you? The dagger does look typical for the Philippines but is atypical for the US. I don’t think the average American would accept a hunting type knife with an asymmetrically ground blade and an experienced hunter probably wouldn’t want one with such a large guard either (it would just get in the way). That brings us back to the Philippines. The question is, given the post war anger toward the Japanese, would there have been a large enough market for a Japanese manufacturer to specially make an asymmetrically ground blade and export it to the Philippines (especially with Japanese characters on it)? Perhaps the enmity has lessened over the years but the economic disparity between the two countries has steadily increased. In recent times, would a Japanese manufacturer be able to export a blade at a price point competitive with local knife makers? The above factors are what led me to the admittedly far-fetched supposition that I opened this thread with. Bradley S, The informant I mentioned in my response Piers D also wrote that the the same characters were said by Google AI to mean the same thing in Chinese and Japanese. So China and Taiwan are possible sources. After mainland China became the People’s Republic, I don’t think the government would have allowed a dagger to be manufactured and sold to the public domestically and the close Philippine-American ties make it unlikely the the mainland was exporting anything to the Philippines until after 1972 (when Nixon “opened” China). That leaves Taiwan which is possible but the logo stamped on the blade looks somehow Japanese to me. Sincerely, RTillman

Hi All, I know it’s a dagger and not a sword but I don’t know where else to put it. My question is this: I know that the US made edged weapons for the Philippine resistance during the war. Could this dagger have been made for Philippine forces loyal to Japan? When I first saw this knife on the seller’s table, I thought it was Philippine but the the characters on the blade make that doubtful. I believe the two characters and the diamond shaped logo are Japanese (if they are Chinese, I’m probably out of luck on this forum). Can anyone translate the legible characters or does anyone recognize the logo? Although the piece does look like something that would be found in the northern Philippines, it looks like factory work, not the typical Philippine local blacksmith job. Also, given the residual bitterness over the Japanese occupation, I don’t think early postwar Japanese exports to the Philippines would have been very welcome. Features of the hilt, guard, and blade are very unlike the typical Japanese hunting knife made for export to the US. For starters, the 6.125” (15.5cm) single edge blade is ground on one side only. Another anomaly is the steel guard which is far larger than would be seen on a US hunting knife. Lastly, the plug bayonet shaped hilt (steel ferrule, and pommel cap) is also atypical for a US hunting knife. As you can see from the flat side photo, the blade profile, while slightly asymmetrical, really doesn’t have a clip point as the grind would make it appear. That grind does give the blade a false edge at the tip though. It appears that the tang is peened over the pommel cap. The hilt itself is lathe turned hardwood and is very smooth. The blade, guard, and pommel cap are joined together with no movement but the ferrule and the wood hilt rotate freely. There is a leather washer at the base of the blade. No sheath. Sincerely, RTillman

Bugyotsuji, Thanks for the response. I hope that other members will weigh in also. I would especially like to know if anyone recognizes the design motif on the shield currently under discussion as well as those on the similar shields in the previous threads. Sincerely, RTillman

Hi All, There is a recent thread on the vikingsword forum (http://www.vikingswo...owthread.php?t=29601, Strange Shield for Discussion [posted 01/30/24]) that may be of interest to Nihonto Message Board members. Thus far there has been no positive ID for the item. Two prior threads on similar items (http://www.vikingswo...owthread.php?t=14825 & http://www.vikingswo...owthread.php?t=22648) also failed to provide an ID. Origin opinions range from North Africa, to Indo Persian to South East Asia. I speculated that the shield might actually have been a discarded jingasa that was repurposed by non-Japanese craftsmen in South East Asia for the local market. After having obtained the ok from the poster and vikingsword moderators, I decided to post a request for input on the Nihonto forum. Who better to determine whether or not the items are Japanese? Sincerely, RTillman

Bruce Pennington, Thanks for the response. That clarifies a lot. What should I do about the nakago. I was thinking that a little light machine oil and hand rubbing with my fingers might remove some of the loose rust, make the mei clearer, and serve to protect the nakago further rusting. Or, should I just leave it alone? Hopefully, if Trystan knows anything more about the smith, he will share the info with us. Sincerely, Tillman

Bangbangsan & Bruce Pennington, I have a fair to middlin knowledge of Indonesian keris, Philippine kris, and etc but with Nihonto I'm not even on the radar so your remarks, which hold significance for you and other experts on this forum are rather cryptic to me. I assume that Bangbangsan's response means that my sword was completed in November of 1943 by Kaneatsu and Bruce Pennington's response means that this is a good thing. I did an on line search for Kaneatsu and came up empty but I did find a site called WWII Japanese Swordsmith's Ranking (copyright 1997-2010 by Dr Jinsoo Kim) which gives a lengthy list of WWII Japanese sword smiths. I couldn't fine Kaneatsu listed (admittedly, I may have missed it). So, that being the case, I have two questions about Kaneatsu: Were his swords traditionally made (masa sa tetsu/tamahagani and water quenched in a traditional manner) and, if not, what is the significance of this smith? I also have one other related question, why was a blade made in 1943 dressed with an Edo period Heianjo tsuba? I am a complete novice when it comes to the nuances of Nihonto, so I would benefit from it greatly if you could spell things out for me. Sincerely, Tillman

Spartancrest, Please forgive my tardy response. I just removed the Philippine hilt (very happily without damage to hilt, blade or tsuba) so I can now follow your advice. Your solution of handling to restore patina appeals to me greatly. The tsuba has a great tactile feel, much like a worry stone and time isn't an issue with beautiful historical objects. Sincerely, RTillman

Hi All, After spending a good while gently prying the Philippine hilt off the nakago (with heart in mouth all the way), to my joy I discovered a mei. There are also characters on the other side (mfg date perhaps?). The problem is that the nakago is too rusty to photograph. The entire nakago is covered with red rust and some of it is flaky. There are also a few blisters of rust present. I know that cleaning the nakago is a very delicate process so l am asking for guidance. I have submitted pictures of both sides of the nakago so that the extent of the problem can be seen. PS, I was able to get the Philippine hilt off without damage and am very happy about that.

ChrisW, I have a feeling that any tsuba cleaning was done in the US. The Filipino owner probably kept the tsuba oiled to prevent rust but after the end of the war, it probably became US serviceman's bring back and then sat in a basement gathering rust until an antiques dealer got a hold of it and cleaned it up. Who knows where it has been for the past 77 years and how many owners it has had. Thanks for the advice in cleaning the blade. I will follow it but I must say that for practically everything else I collect, hand cleaning of red or black rust with an abrasive pad is perfectly acceptable. Of course nothing else I collect is expected to have a mirror polish. Bruce Pennington, I was afraid that it would be impossible to tell from the photographs whether or not I have a genuine samurai blade. This leaves me with a decision. Do I risk degrading the item's WWII history for the possibility a much older samurai history or do I leave things as they are. I think I will carefully poke around a bit to see if the hilt can be removed without damage. If I can get it off, perhaps the tang will tell us more. Sincerely, RTillman

Spartancrest, Thanks for the info. I suspect that my tsuba was was black like the two you show with the blossoms. Is there any way to restore this color and also restore the gold colored metal of the pattern? Sincerely, RTillman

Hi All, I just posted a mystery sword in the military forum. I am posting the tsuba here in hope of more information on it. I will also post the entire sword just for context. Save for the fuchi, the hilt is certainly Philippine work. I am sure that the fuchi and sheath are from a shin-gunto but the blade may or may not be a shin-gunto. The tsuba certainly isn't shin-gunto and the workmanship is simply stunning (or any other superlative that you would care to use). The lines of the intricate and precise geometric pattern cut in the steel are about a hair in thickness. These lines were originally filled with some sort of gold colored alloy (I would love to know how they did that). Each side has three five-pointed stars. All three of the stars and much of the inlay are present on the hilt side but only one star remains on the blade side and most of the inlay is missing.