Advice needed: Different sword lengths for different ryu.

[Guest Simon Rowson]

I wonder if any of our iai-orientated brothers (and sisters) can shed some light on the following:

 

Whilst reading about the various traditional Japanese sword schools (Kukishin-ryū, Nen-ryū, Tenshin Shōden Katori Shintō-ryū, Gyokko-ryū, Hōzōin-ryū, Ittō-ryū, Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage-ryū, Kashima Shintō-ryū, Maniwa Nen-ryū, Musō Jikiden Eishin-ryū, Musō Shinden-ryū, Takenouchi-ryū, Tatsumi-ryū, Yagyū Shinkage-ryū, Hoki-ryū, Hyōhō Niten Ichi-ryū, Isshin-ryū, Kitō-ryū, Shintō Musō-ryū, Sōsuishi-ryū, Suiō-ryū, etc, etc, etc), I have noticed frequent comments about the recommended length of sword used for iaido/jutsu varying widely from school to school.

 

No-one, however, seems able to specify the exact length of blade preferred by each tradition.

 

Otake sensei of the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu comments (in his book "The Deity and the Sword") that the daisho used by a famous master of the Yagyu style were both particulary short and Otake sensei's own katana (an o-suriage 15thC tachi I believe) also looks fairly short in photos and video-clips.

 

I know that many iaito manufacturers and iai books have their own recommendations about sizing a katana to an individual but these often vary greatly (even when the books are concerned with the same style - usually the Seitei iaido of the All Japan Kendo Federation) or tend toward particularly long swords.

 

One of the reasons I'm asking about this is that I'm a caucasian of 5' 9" in height but, in my very far off days of practicing iai in the UK, I always felt most comfortable with a katana of only 27" in blade length.

Now my arms aren't particularly long but, judging by present day standards, was I a little odd in preferring such a short blade?

 

I'd be very interested to find out if some traditional schools actually encourage the use of a shorter sword as I'm contemplating taking up iai again .....this time far more seriously.

 

I look forward to hearing your views.

 

Simon

[Matthew Whittle]

Hi Simon,

 

I'm sorry I can only be brief as I'm about to leave for the airport. I think I may have mentioned that I study Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu and Toda-ha Buko Ryu (which also includes sword work but focuses on the naginata). As you know, MJER is a very big school so there is a rather wide variety of preferences, not only with respect to swords but also with respect to executing techniques.

 

Nevertheless, it is generally important to match your sword length to your height (or arm length) so that the MJER nukitsuke (drawing of the sword) can be performed correctly. If your sword is too short it will fly out of the saya, if it is too long you will have to do contortions to get it out. Some people check the length of a sword by holding it loosely in their right hand with their arm relaxed at their side - the tip of the sword should just touch the ground in front of your feet.

 

I know I haven't really answered your question about schools that favour short swords. However, if you ever want to give MJER a try, I am happy to take you to my dojo in the Jiyugaoka area of Tokyo (several of the guys there are sword collectors so you should feel at home).

 

Cheers,

Matthew

[Wim V]

Hi there,

 

From age 16 till 22 I have trained Zen Nihon Kendo Renmei Iaido (commonly referred to as "Seitei-Iai") and also Muso Shinden Ryu. I know some people in Muso Shinden favour rather long swords but this did not seem like a strict standard to me.

 

As Matthew mentioned, also in our school the importance of a good drawing motion (nukitsuke) was highly stressed. If your sword is very short it flies out of the saya very quickly as you draw it, but then your left hand has little or no function. With a longer sword, your left hand must actively participate with pulling the saya backwards as your right hand draws the sword forward (the terms "saya-banare" and "saya-biki" are used to describe this if I remember correctly). This backward action with the left hand and saya also makes your cutting action stronger (you can compare it with "hiki-te" when performing "tsuki-waza" in karate), so it is very important that your sword is long enough to be able to perform this technique correctly.

 

Now to give you an idea, my own body length is 192cm and I trained with a 2.5 shaku iaito (approx 75.7 cm). Most people in our dojo used swords with a standard length of 2.4 shaku, sometimes a bit shorter or longer according to their own arm length.

 

But in the end, as long as you can perform the techniques correctly, the rest is up to personal taste I guess. One of the sensei I admire the most here in Belgium is a bit smaller than myself (around 180 cm I guess) and he trains with a shinshinto katana which is 2.7 shaku in length ! (almost 82cm!). I have always wondered how he is able to handle this sword but he is fast as lightning with it, so I think good technique is most important after all.

 

Concerning other schools I don't have a good view on them. I know of one dojo near my town where they teach Katori Shinto Ryu. I have visited them only a few times but they did not seem to use especially long or short swords, somewhere around 2.4 shaku I would think. (73cm)

 

Best regards,

 

Wim

[Guest Simon Rowson]

Thank you very much gentlemen,

 

Your comments bear out what I have recently been told by a sensei of the Toyama Ryu - that, at 175cm in height, I should be looking at a 2.4 to 2.5 shaku blade length.

 

The same sensei is also a dealer of both antique blades and shinsakuto and so I'll probably get one of the latter from him. The only drawback is I'll probably have to sell the majority of my collection (it's only 4 blades and 4 tsuba) in order to buy a brand new shinken!

 

Simon

 

PS Matthew, thank you so much for your kind offer of taking me to your dojo.....I would love to see it!

[kusunokimasahige]

why buy a shinken which is NOT a nihonto..?

 

why not buy a Gassan Sadakatsu/Sadatsugu gendaito instead?

 

KM

[Guest Simon Rowson]

Actually "Shinken" just means "real sword" and the one I have my eye on is by a recently qualified student of mukansa-level smith Yoshihara Kuniie so it's definitely a Nihonto.

 

As to Gassan Sadakatsu/Sadatsugu gendaito, check out the prices for a reason for me not to buy one! Also, most of their blades are standard gunto length which kind of defeats the issue if I need one at 2.4 shaku and above.

[kusunokimasahige]

Ah i stand corrected!!

 

i was under the impression that in the iaido / katori sports a shinken normally would denote a Paul Chen / Bugei razor.......

 

hence my mistake!

 

 

KM

[Guest Simon Rowson]

No problem,

 

There's actually an expression here in Japan, "Shin-ken sho-bu", which literally means "a contest with real swords" and metaphorically means something done in a deadly serious way.

 

Simon

[Guest Simon Rowson]

As an interesting postcript to the question of length, I was reading "The Art of the Japanese Sword" by Kunihara Kawachi yesterday and found the following references to the various swords owned by Bakumatsu Jidai hero Ryoma Sakamoto.

 

At age 21, Sakamoto favoured an 85.4cm sword by the contemporary smith Minamoto Masao. As Sakamoto was 176cm tall (interestingly only .74cm taller than me) this was an exceptionally long blade for him to wield and was more than likely simply a young man's "fashion statement" rather than a practical weapon.

He carried this sword whilst his experience of swordplay was limited to the dojo but, tellingly, once he had participated in actual life or death fights and had to use his sword to desperately defend himself, he very quickly switched to a Yoshiyuki blade measuring only 60.6cm (this sword was a gift from Saigo Takamori and was worn by Sakamoto on the night of his assassination) and a Bizen katana of 61.8cm.

 

I think that this admirably illustrates the difference between a truly practical combat blade and the longer versions which were admired in the dojo in Sakamoto's day and which continue to be insisted upon even now.

 

I fully understand the good form in pulling the saya back as you draw but, if your life was actually on the line, you would probably want something that "flew out" of the saya and which was small and light enough to use effectively anywhere.....not just in a spacious dojo.

 

Fascinating stuff!

[w.y.chan]

May I ask who is "Yoshindo Kuniie"?

[Bushido01]

Simon,

Very interesting article, thank you. IMHO, beside the length of shinken, its weight is another major concern. Especially for Iaido practice a heavy sword, which usually comes with the longer swords, will become a burden soon. As you know in Iaido all drawing, chiboris and notos are done with one hand. Practicing with a heavy sword could cause pains in arms and shoulders as well as tendonitis after a while. Most Iaido Senseis regardless of their style agree that the shinken should be light and practical for one hand practices. I'm 178 cm tall and all my shinkens are between 700-800 grams (blade only). Total weight with tsuka and tsuba between 1000-1100 grams and the length of between 2.3.7 and 2.4.2. An average iaito including tsuka and tsuba weighs about 800 grams. Generally a bit shorter shinken than your practicing iaito is recommended. Balance of the blade is another important factor in choosing a shinken.

Best,

[Guest Simon Rowson]

Apologies Mr Chan. As you no doubt guessed, I actually meant to say Yoshihara Kuniie but accidentally put his brother's given name

 

And thank you, Rod, for your kind input.....it was also very constructive and informative.

 

Simon

[w.y.chan]

Apologies Mr Chan. As you no doubt guessed, I actually meant to say Yoshihara Kuniie but accidentally put his brother's given name

 

Simon

 

I might have guess you are referring to the Yoshiharas but I wouldnt have guessed which of the brothers you were referring since you stated both of their names.

[Guest Simon Rowson]

Very true, but as Yoshihara and Yoshindo are reasonably similar (in that they both share "Yoshi") I think it would be fairly reasonable to assume that that was where I made my error.

 

Nontheless, it's hardly a point worth debating at any length and I have now duly ammended my mistake in the post above.

 

Simon

[w.y.chan]

Very true, but as Yoshihara and Yoshindo are reasonably similar (in that they both share "Yoshi") I think it would be fairly reasonable to assume that that was where I made my error.

 

Nontheless, it's hardly a point worth debating at any length and I have now duly ammended my mistake in the post above.

 

Simon

 

Sorry but it is worth having another look since you werent the first person to use "Yoshindo Kuniie" please see here (sorry Fred)http://www.nihonto.com/itemsaleswords.html

 

Also the "Yoshi" for "Yoshihara" is completely different to the "Yoshi" for "Yoshindo", but I now know were you made your error.

[Guest Simon Rowson]

Does it really matter that much?

 

I made a slip-up in typing, had it pointed out and ammended it.

End of story.

 

I honestly don't want to carry on discussing such a trivial mistake as it totally detracts from my original thread, which was the length of katana used by the different Japanese ryu.

 

If this goes way off topic then Brian will (rightly) end up locking the thread and I'm actually still very interested to hear other members thoughts about my original question.

 

Simon

[kusunokimasahige]

a question for you Simon,

 

which sport do you think is most useful in self defense?

 

Iaido

 

Kendo

 

or Katori Shinto Ryu ?

 

i dont have the money yet but one day i would love to be able to do all, including Kyudo/Yabusame....

 

since i would love to have a full Samurai training.......

 

KM

[Guest Simon Rowson]

To be honest with you KM, none of those mentioned are particularly useful for self defence in our modern society as they all require swords or shinai.

 

However, if you're looking for the most authentically practical discipline of the three, then I think Katori Shinto Ryu without a doubt.

 

I had the very great privilege and honour to cross bokken with Otake Risuke sensei (shihan of the KSR) 3 weeks ago and he is so incredibly fast, even at 81!

 

He demonstrated 4 kata to me and my wife and each of them had a very practical application and (originally) lethal purpose.

 

I am now planning to join this ryu myself - especially as Otake sensei encouraged me to use my 2.2 shaku katana. He told me that Donn F Draeger sensei (his most famous foreign student) was a very tall man but even he only used a 2.3 shaku blade whilst performing iai-jutsu.

 

All the best,

 

Simon

[waynes]

To be honest with you KM, none of those mentioned are particularly useful for self defence in our modern society as they all require swords or shinai.

 

Hi, Simon I must disagree with you. Though they were originally intended for swords they can be quickly adapted to the use of other things, like the way the Okinawans did. Prime example in today's society: taking a stroll through the park a would be robber with a knife attacks you could fend him off using a branch in the manner of a katana. Just my 2cent

[Guest Simon Rowson]

True Wayne, but in today's "protect the criminals rights" society you'd likely be the one arrested for using an offensive weapon.

 

Also, if you're attacked in a bar what do you use - a pool cue?

 

When replying to KM, I simply meant that these three arts are not as practical as say, karate, judo or aikido which require no weapons whatsoever.

 

 

However, I guess that this is the most truly effective modern martial art - it's called "Baseball Batto":

[waynes]

Hi Simon I see what you meant now. Shame about the whole protect the criminals rights. Should be some test cutting of old in my opinion.