Mino-den and Magoroku Kanemoto resources

[Natichu]

Hi all,

 

I've recently been developing an interest in Mino-den works (the black sheep of the Gokaden it seems, with reference to the venerable member Hoshi's post:

This has led me to pick up a copy of the excellent book on Kanesada (No-sada) and Magoroku Kanemoto discussed here:

 

 

All of which has led to a couple of questions. The first is regarding Magoroku Kanemoto (first gen Magoroku/second gen Kanemoto). I've seen a few descriptions around describing his sugata generally being one with high shinogi (for example, Shoshin.com, likely speaking of the Kanemoto lineage generally). These, however, have primarily been online sources. The book above, on the other hand, seems to indicate a low shinogi (if I understand the Japanese correctly, which is a big if), stating:

 

兼元の作品の特徴は、身幅がやや広く、鎬が低く重ねが薄めで平肉のつかない造りこみとなり... (discussion of jihada omitted.) 

 

Anyone have any light they could shed on the usual shinogi height and sugata for Magoroku Kanemoto? 

 

Second, does anyone have any further reading or other sources they'd recommend on the Mino schools more generally, and in particular Magoroku Kanemoto/the Kanemoto lineage and the Sue-Seki schools? 

 

Any input, illumination, or recommendations would be greatly appreciated! 

 

 

[Takezo]

This was a beautiful Magoroku https://world-seiyudo.com/product/wa-090625/

 

There is some light info there. Mino and Sue-Seki were producing highly practical swords and were sort of like the second Bizen, turning into a high output production area. Of course there were also some masterpieces produced by a few smiths like Nosada and Magoroku. 

[eternal_newbie]

2 hours ago, Takezo said:

Mino and Sue-Seki were producing highly practical swords and were sort of like the second Bizen, turning into a high output production area.

 

Think of them as combining the production efficiency of Bizen with the practical, no-nonsense focus of Yamato. Being primarily nioi-deki like Bizen smiths helps with the former (it is easier to manage the quenching and tempering process with lower temperatures, resulting in less failures and therefore higher output and shorter turnaround), while a focus on resilience and cutting power above all other considerations results in a somewhat less aesthetically pleasing product. Indeed, Nosada and the Kanemoto lineage are known above all else for their cutting prowess, with Nosada getting additional acclaim for managing to do this while recapturing some of the beauty of the earlier Shizu style; in contrast, Kanemoto is rivaled in pure cutting ability only by Bizen O-Kanemitsu.

[Hoshi]

Hi, 

 

Oh no, you found my old meme. 

 

Mino was solving for a different challenge: manufacturing at scale a sufficiently good product while minimizing cost (raw materials, labor). In this, the Mino enterprise succeeded greatly. 

 

But one should make a 'carve out' for Nosada. His Rai Utsushi are genuinely impressive works. Kanemoto the 2nd has a few (rare) impressive works as well, but they do not reach up to Nosada's level. 

 

The key trait to look for in their highest tier works is the absence of shirake utsuri. Shirake utsuri is one of the hallmarks of Mino in general, and one of the key detriments in the field of Nihonto that marks the great fall as it becomes pervasive in the muromachi period. Shirake is the opposite of nure-gokoro, or uroi. When we say a sword looks "whitish" (Shirake) - we really mean that it feels flat, and that its jigane lacks profoundness (absence of jinie), and therefore, in aesthetic terms, the ability to elicit a sense of Yugen (a gentle form of awe, as unfolding mystery).

 

In purely subjective and poetic terms, it therefore elicits the impression of a "mundane pragmatic object" as opposed to an "mysterious ethereal beauty". 

 

As to where this detriment come from, we can speculate that it may be due to the raw materials used and their processing, with shirake marking an industrial advancement in cost of production through material sourcing and processing. Nie utsuri and Shirake utsuri are mutually exclusive, with the former being a positive trait, expressed in the best works of Nosada. An interesting point is that the dreaded Shirake appears also in Sue-Soshu around the same time. However, It was not "invented" in Mino, either, as provincial traditions of the koto period and lesser schools do display it at times. 

 

As for Magoroku and sharpness, the key trait is not the hamon, it's the blade profile. The best ones are wide, slim, with high shinogi yet little width (kasane) difference at the the highest point of the shinogi, and and excellently balanced curvature at the mid-point of the blade. By holding one in your hand, one cannot escape the feeling of aggressive sharpness. It forms a cohesive whole with the irregular sambonsugi hamon. I will concede that this draws on a different subjective repertoire centered around pragmatism, which has an appeal in itself. 

 

Here is an interesting Magoroku with a Kiritsuke mei and a tradition that it was once owned by the third son of Oda Nobunaga (the tradition is, to the best of my knowledge, not verifiable prior to the pre-war period).

 

https://nihontowatch.com/s/598722?v=1784619665

 

Best,

 

Hoshi

 

[Lewis B]

Mino was the kiss of death for smiths like Echizen Tametsugu. His forging style suffered massively IMHO after making the transition from Echizen to Mino. The hada became coaser and less aesthetically pleasing. In a word the blades from this later period are a bit blah. Compare his Mino output with work that was influenced by Norishige and through him, Go, and it all just feels a bit sad. Could this have been the materials available locally, certainly, but I think its more the Mino-den effect and perhaps a lack of ambition and a desire to excel. Tametsugu knew how to make great swords, but regardless, quality declined over time. 

 

I'm sure all the swordsmiths would have loved to have had access to highest quality Masa tamahagane that the early Bizen smiths were using, but many adapted and made the most of their inferior local raw material. Take Shintogo Kunimitsu for example. If he could make superior, awe-inspiring works using inferior Akame tamahagane made from the local red iron sand (satetsu) with its titanium, sulphur and phosphorus impurities, there is no reason why lesser quality materials could not have been used to produce equally excellent blades in Mino. 

[Takezo]

Quote

The key trait to look for in their highest tier works is the absence of shirake utsuri. Shirake utsuri is one of the hallmarks of Mino in general, and one of the key detriments in the field of Nihonto that marks the great fall as it becomes pervasive in the muromachi period. Shirake is the opposite of nure-gokoro, or uroi. When we say a sword looks "whitish" (Shirake) - we really mean that it feels flat, and that its jigane lacks profoundness (absence of jinie), and therefore, in aesthetic terms, the ability to elicit a sense of Yugen (a gentle form of awe, as unfolding mystery).

Well said @Hoshi. This really describes and alludes to many things that go into judging a sword as great, at least in the Japanese perspective. A sword with abundant jinie and subtle chikei never fully reveals itself. The steel does not merely reflect light...it seems to contain it. As you tilt it under changing light, new details emerge continuously. There is always another layer to discover. That inexhaustibility is very closely tied to the ability to elicit the sense of yugen I think. A fundamental question: "Does the steel itself have life?" If the jihada possesses uruoi, depth, and quiet complexity, you have a good signal of what is looked for in a masterwork. It really reflects the concept of the overall ideal Japanese aesthetic to me, which is something that contains tension, restraint and unspoken spirituality. Shirake really leaves you with nowhere else to explore, like fog or cloudy water that doesn't have an interplay with light.

Edited July 23 by Takezo

[Natichu]

Many thanks all for the illuminating discussion! 

 

19 hours ago, Hoshi said:

.... 

The key trait to look for in their highest tier works is the absence of shirake utsuri. Shirake utsuri is one of the hallmarks of Mino in general, and one of the key detriments in the field of Nihonto that marks the great fall as it becomes pervasive in the muromachi period. Shirake is the opposite of nure-gokoro, or uroi. When we say a sword looks "whitish" (Shirake) - we really mean that it feels flat, and that its jigane lacks profoundness (absence of jinie), and therefore, in aesthetic terms, the ability to elicit a sense of Yugen (a gentle form of awe, as unfolding mystery).

... 

 

@Hoshi, thank you for putting rather clearly what I think had been alluding me. While I'd seen Mino works described as "inferior" (at least from the perspective of nihonto as art), I hadn't read a concise or clear explanation. The impact that shirake has on the depth and clarity of a blade's jigane makes much sense, and I can see that giving the impact of a more practical object rather than the depth of something more profound. 

 

19 hours ago, Hoshi said:

... 

As for Magoroku and sharpness, the key trait is not the hamon, it's the blade profile. The best ones are wide, slim, with high shinogi yet little width (kasane) difference at the the highest point of the shinogi, and and excellently balanced curvature at the mid-point of the blade. By holding one in your hand, one cannot escape the feeling of aggressive sharpness. It forms a cohesive whole with the irregular sambonsugi hamon. I will concede that this draws on a different subjective repertoire centered around pragmatism, which has an appeal in itself. 

... 

 

I'm not sure I follow your description of Magoroku Kanemoto's typical daito sugata. My understanding was that a high shinogi implied a notable difference in width between the kasane and the shinogi such that in cross-section the shinogi-ji angles notably inward from the peak of the shinogi as one moves towards the mune. In your description, are you describing a blade with a high shinogi, but little difference in thickness of the moto-kasane and saki-kasane (little distal taper)? Or something else? My apologies for my confusion, I just can't quite picture what you're describing. 

[Hoshi]

Hi Nathaniel, 

 

Quote

I'm not sure I follow your description of Magoroku Kanemoto's typical daito sugata. My understanding was that a high shinogi implied a notable difference in width between the kasane and the shinogi such that in cross-section the shinogi-ji angles notably inward from the peak of the shinogi as one moves towards the mune. In your description, are you describing a blade with a high shinogi, but little difference in thickness of the moto-kasane and saki-kasane (little distal taper)? Or something else? My apologies for my confusion, I just can't quite picture what you're describing. 

 

I realize I did not express myself very clearly. What I mean is that for Magoroku blades, the difference in kasane between the shinogi and the mune is small, the blade feels almost flat as a result. It's not "high vs low" shinogi (in fact, I would say the shinogi height is 'average' overall for this maker). Picture a diamond shape for the cross-section, you can have a squarish diamond or a flatish diamond. The Magoroku cross-section is a flatish diamond shape, and as a result, the blade feels slim and sharp, optimized for minimizing drag in soft targets.

 

And since the blades are so flat, you will rarely ever see a bohi in a Magoroku blade (there is simply not enough metal to make the removal worth it). It is quite a special and innovative geometry. From a functional perspective, would go as far and state that this is the geometry of the real innovation of Magoroku that made his blades famous for their sharpness, not the sambonsugi hamon. 

 

Best,

 

Hoshi

 

 

 

[Natichu]

5 hours ago, Hoshi said:

Hi Nathaniel, 

 

 

I realize I did not express myself very clearly. What I mean is that for Magoroku blades, the difference in kasane between the shinogi and the mune is small, the blade feels almost flat as a result. It's not "high vs low" shinogi (in fact, I would say the shinogi height is 'average' overall for this maker). Picture a diamond shape for the cross-section, you can have a squarish diamond or a flatish diamond. The Magoroku cross-section is a flatish diamond shape, and as a result, the blade feels slim and sharp, optimized for minimizing drag in soft targets.

 

And since the blades are so flat, you will rarely ever see a bohi in a Magoroku blade (there is simply not enough metal to make the removal worth it). It is quite a special and innovative geometry. From a functional perspective, would go as far and state that this is the geometry of the real innovation of Magoroku that made his blades famous for their sharpness, not the sambonsugi hamon. 

 

Best,

 

Hoshi

 

 

 

Thank you Hoshi, that makes sense and certainly aligns with the Japanese description of his sugata I quoted in my initial post - wide blade, low shinogi, thin kasane. And certainly makes sense why that profile was highly regarded in terms of cutting prowess (it sounds similar to what one sees called a "laser" in the English-speaking online Japanese kitchen knife community).