Sukekane/Sukenaga

[Lindus]

I have an urge to get a sword polished ,never done this before, but it is decision time, what will I keep to take into the old folks home with me .

Two swords that have always pleased me as they are not Gendaito or in some peoples books, shin shinto, are a Suke kane & Suke naga. What is the members opinions of thesemen apart from the obvious?, are they worth a polish and shira saya?.

 

Your input would be most appreciated.

 

The third option is a Tadamitsu dated 1509....not a great smith but a lovely sword.

[cabowen]

Sukenaga and his student, Sukekane, are considered above average smiths from Shinshinto. I have owned blades by both and while they were both well made, flashy, attractive blades, ultimately the lack of activity created a severe case of ennui so I moved them along.

 

They are highly collectible and in general terms, very much worthy of a polish. Make sure they are genuine as there are many good fakes of both of them.

 

Hard to believe you have never had a sword polished......

[Lindus]

LOL Chris,I would guess you have never had my income.

And the Tadamitsu?

[cabowen]

Perhaps you could have done what I and others have done: sell a few things and use the funds for polishing...Judging from your website, you had no shortage of items.....

[Lindus]

Shortage of polishers that were affordable at the time, affordable is subjective of course when the collecting lust is there...am honoured that you visited my humble site Chris,will have a blue plaque erected

[Lindus]

The "Blue plaque" Has been erected young Bowen. In the UK this is a mrk shown on buildings where a person of note has either lived or visited

 

http://collectorsloot.homestead.com/index.html

[cabowen]

Truly honored....

[Eric H]

Two swords that have always pleased me as they are not Gendaito or in some peoples books, shin shinto, are a Suke kane & Suke naga

There are listed on your home page Katanas by Sukenaga and Sukekane...are these the two items you intend to polish?

 

http://collectorsloot.homestead.com/Civilinfo.html

 

That Sukenaga with date Ansei...is not a work by Sukenaga first generation and the mei when compared with Sukenaga II seems not to be in accordance.

 

I‘m amused to see how general informations on this smith are so different.

 

Eric

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

According Fujishiro, Iida, Tokuno and the Afu Watson Shinshinto volume page 376 the good date is Ansei 4 (1851) aged of 57 years.

[Lindus]

There are listed on your home page Katanas by Sukenaga and Sukekane...are these the two items you intend to polish

 

That Sukenaga with date Ansei...is not a work by Sukenaga first generation and the mei when compared with Sukenaga II

 

Hi Eric

This has come up several times over the years,I took it to the first To-Ken Taikai where several men far more knowledgable than I looked at it. The constuction of the blade and in particular the Hamon was agreed as being pretty much identical to the work of the man.

As to the Mei,hell I do not know but can see both sides of the argument,it came in a combat cover from a chap In Redruth,Cornwall. His father was in the occupation force post war and bought the sword for six bars of carbolic soap,this says nothing other than soap = sword days will never come back

[Eric H]

They are highly collectible and in general terms, very much worthy of a polish. Make sure they are genuine as there are many good fakes of both of them.

 

...hits the nail on the head

 

I have found the chiseling of Sukenaga‘s mei has changed slightly over the times. However in the book „Cutting Edge“, Swords in the British Museum, the listed Nr. 50 Yokoyama Sukenaga, p. 72, dated 1842... the same pictured as Yokoyama Sukesada... a simple writing error and not of importance, but what is eye catching is the ugly cut mei, date 1842...other details also not in accordance left aside.

 

pic: left date Tenpo 13 - 1842, right Tenpo 14 -1843

 

Should the left mei be correct than Sukenaga has suffered a serious attack of Parkinson

 

Roy, it's sometimes not easy to make the right decision :D

[NihontoEurope]

Hello,

 

Here is my contribution from my collection to the thread:

 

[attachment=0]SUKENAGA.jpg[/attachment]

 

/Martin

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

The Sukekane is very likely gimei, and the Sukesada seems gimei too.

[Lindus]

Roy, it's sometimes not easy to make the right decision :D

 

Your are dead right,I remember a very well known UK dealers throwing in a comment many years ago re Mei from a dealers point of view. "It is easier to say its a fake and come over as a genius than agreeing it could be genuine and then having to explain why,as well as paying more"

 

I will go with my own feelings as it has always been a question as to how a man can chisel the exact same mei over a period of decades with out on occasions making some major variation.

Perhaps some of the more learned of the membership might throw in some comments as I suspect many new collectors as well as us old guys could benefit from a discussion on this subject.

[cabowen]

It can be very difficult for someone not trained to correctly write Japanese to spot a well executed gimei. Those that are and have familiarity with sword signatures can usually spot a gimei at a glance. When asked why they think a mei is not good, the answer I have often received is "it doesn't feel right"....

 

Poorly done gimei are rather easy to spot if you have some experience and knowledge of the written language. Like everything else, it takes experience, a good amount, to recognize even rather poorly done gimei. One can always compare to known examples, but often times this will not be enough. In any case, these comparisons should be the starting point, not the concluding test (see below). Often times it is not the strokes of the kanji but their relative size, slant, spacing, placement, depth, etc., that will give hints.

 

There is no doubt that there is some variation in all smith's signatures and certainly some more than others. This is where knowing something about the written language (and the smith in question) can be helpful. There is a difference between natural variation and a simple fake...All too often I hear wishful owners trying to explain away a gimei with "maybe the smith had too much sake" or the like. This is nothing but wishful thinking....

 

Thankfully there is more to a blade than the signature- the overall workmanship, style, and quality is all part of the evaluation. It is a commonly heard saying that the blade confirms the maker, not the signature. The place to start is the blade. Mei can be well copied but first rate craftsmanship and the idiosyncrasies of a quality smith seldom are. The Yokoyama smiths of the upper level were quite consistent with their work and it shouldn't be terribly difficult to make a reasonable determination based on the blade...

[Lee Bray]

I will go with my own feelings as it has always been a question as to how a man can chisel the exact same mei over a period of decades with out on occasions making some major variation.

 

Make that centuries.

Take a look at the Hizen Tadayoshi school lineage for very similar mei over nine generations.

Most of the generations can only be told apart by slight variations in stroke direction, specifically done to distinguish between them(from my limited knowledge of Tadayoshi mei, anyway).

If nine generations can replicate similar mei, I reckon one smith should be able to handle it.

[Lindus]

Thanks Chris

This is an interesting reply and would go to answering question that are out there in the silent majority.

 

Having said that My Ex Kotetsu was for sure by the great man after a long lunch and loads of "Cheap" sak'e

 

[Eric H]

Eleven years are between these two signatures, the left one is Tenpo 3, 1832, the other as said Tenpo 14, 1843.

The differencies in the tagane work are barely noticeable.

 

Eric

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Tenpo 15 and a big modification.

 

[Lindus]

"Make that centuries.

Take a look at the Hizen Tadayoshi school lineage for very similar mei over nine generations.

Most of the generations can only be told apart by slight variations in stroke direction, specifically done to distinguish between them(from my limited knowledge of Tadayoshi mei, anyway).

If nine generations can replicate similar mei, I reckon one smith should be able to handle it."

 

So perhaps there are numbers of blades around that while being genuine but having the unusual feature of the smith on a bad day cutting a mei slightly different,would have been discraded. Had a blade been out of polish when BW Robinson and the Japanese officer were sorting through hundreds of blades in post war Japan, judging on Mei alone, this must surely have been probable.

Was there not a very famous faker who took blades that appeared right for certain smiths and applied a mei as accepted by the oshigata books, these were accepted for some years as genuine......all part of the mystque that is Nihonto.

 

Were smiths educated men?, did as some old tales say that they cut a mei following the signature written by scribes & applied the paper glued to the Nakago?.

 

As Chris quite rightly said, judge by the blade. Although I took twenty swords to be appraised way back, the man,book in hand,scanned the Mei's and pronounced. On those suriage he stated that they would need to be polished to confirm,during that time a friend took a blade for polish, the man gave the opinion of period & school,changed that opinion almost completely when finished.

Pretty much a fun mine field dontchathink. :?

[paulb]

Hi Roy and all

Couple points of additional information. You are right that some smiths including Shodai Tadayoshi at least in the earlier part of his career, had the mei painted on to the nakago by a priest (whose name I forget, but he is well documented) for the smith to cut through. Later on he was able to sign without this help.

 

Sorry Lee but the suggestion that Hizen Smiths signed the same or in a very similar way througout the generations is a little misleading. Nidai Tadahiro for example had a working life of more than 60 years and his mei varied a lot within that time. It is possible to date his blades accurately based on these differences. Other generations also carved the characters very differently. So although they used the same mei they were not identical or even that consistent in form.

[Lindus]

Would be interested in Robert{Fighter pilot} Robertshaws thoughts on this if he is a member....his knowledge of Hizento is legandary {or any correct spelling }

[paulb]

Hi Roy,

I think the points about using ghost writer and dating the Nidai's work are mentioned in Roger's book. Either that or we discussed it as he filled me full of his scotch sitting on his boat in Hong Kong many years ago! funny how my memory of meetings with Roger are always a bit blurry

[Lee Bray]

Paul, as a Hizen collector, you know that you can spot the Hizen Tadayoshi mei on a bunch of nakago across the room.

Whilst not identical, they all follow a certain style and are fairly straight and uniform.

If anyone has Roger Robertshaw's "School of Hizen Tadayoshi", look at page 51 for what I mean.

Nidai is not in that example as he signed Tadahiro but the similarity across all the generations is fairly apparent, to me anyway.

Your point of using the differences in the Nidai mei to accurately date his blades is valid but it also shows that there is some uniformity to his mei and the changes are not due to 'bad days' or sak'e.

 

The smiths who are commonly faked are generally good smiths. Given the time and effort they put into becoming such, I don't really see that they would sign their work while suffering from the shakes.

Did it happen? Probably, yes, but I can't see it as normal.

 

Kiyomaru was known for enjoying the sauce and still managed to carve a consistent mei...but maybe he had a high alcohol tolerance... :D

 

Sorry, Roy...I'm not making my comments with regard to your swords validity, I just question the 'good days/bad days' scenario.

As said, the blade is the real signature at the end of the day.

[paulb]

Kiyomaru was known for enjoying the sauce and still managed to carve a consistent mei...but maybe he had a high alcohol tolerance

...

 

not high enough. Wasn't his early demise drink related?

[Baka Gaijin]

Morning all,

 

As Chris said, the answer's in the blade.

 

Surely the solution is to send it for appraisal by one of the groups in Japan.

 

(And there Roy, you have legitimate academic reason for a trip to Japan........ ).

 

Cheers

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

As Chris said, the answer's in the blade.

 

 

I disagree with that. Work can match the one of the smith faked ; in this case, to check the mei becomes important. Despite the variations during a career there are always permanent features and oshigata books are there for a good reason.

 

 

Eric,

 

Have a look au kanji Yama on the last examples your posted you will see some difference but the feeling (downward) is the same (specialy in orientation of the dot at the right end). I don't find that feeling in the signature on the blade discussed. I precise it's worth for all horizontal strokes.

[DirkO]

I disagree with that. Work can match the one of the smith faked ; in this case, to check the mei becomes important. Despite the variations during a career there are always permanent features and oshigata books are there for a good reason.

 

I find this an interesting rationale. It's known that certain blades were rejected by shinsa, but after crushing the mei, they were attributed to the smiths who were in the signature in the first place. So likely they were rejected for the mei and not for the work itself. This is a self fulfilling way of working, because over time, all the varying mei will be assumed gimei, except those in the books. So it stands to reason that this way, certain valid shoshin ways of signing will disappear because they were deemed gimei, simply because they weren't recorded in the books.

[paulb]

Dirk,

I think ,but dont know for sure, that the examples you are quoting as being rejected for the mei and then attributed to the smith in the mei is not a result of variation in the original smiths signature. On the few examples I have seen and heard about the original work was right but the mei had been added later by either a student or dealer to enhance value. How such detail was determined is well beyond my abilities but that is the feedback I was given.

[Eric H]

Roy

as already stated a new polish with the appropriate costs is justified when the sword is shoshin and preferably with ubu nakago...that said, the mei on your sword is not convincing.

 

Eric