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Kiyomaro school


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Kunitaro san,

This is really a surprise. Two Horimono on the same theme, one with finely rendered details seemingly to come just fresh out of the workshop, the other slightly different in the details and with signs of wear, but thought to be cut by the same hand. Both with similar suguha hamon but with different hada.

The donated Tanto exhibits in all aspects Nobuhide‘s skill for what he is famous and appreciated.

 

Eric

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In another thread, Kunitaro-san, finally receiving the requested source of a book, relating to a Oshigata on a Tanto by Nobuhide (kawari deki) announced to inform about the work of Abe Akitada, horimono-shi, at „Kiyomaro school?“.

There was a discussion on a Akihide Tanto on this Board, with different opinions on a Horimono by Abe Akitada.

 

Akihide Tanto: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9093&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=0

 

Kunitaro-san I‘m looking forward to your informations hopefully accompanied with pictures.

 

Eric

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Eric san,

Thank you for showing me old thread.

Kurihara Nobuhide and Kurihara Akihide are no connection at all though.

however, The Akihide Chin saku (Tsutsushinde tsukuru) with Akitada hori Tanto is very nice !

Very nice collectable item. the person who bought it has good eye.

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The Akihide Chin saku (Tsustushinde tsukuru) with Akitada hori Tanto is very nice !

Very nice collectable item. the person who bought it has good eye.

 

Kunitaro san, I understand your judgement includes explicitly also the quality of the Horimono... hence this is a late rehabilitation of the overall quality of that Tanto...someone kept it for „silly stuff“...!!!

 

Eric

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I had a chat with Brian last evening and he mentioned this thread. I'd missed it previously but have now had a quick read though and will offer some observations of my own that are based on my experience of carving steel and also doing repair work to blades. I haven't thought about the whole issue of 'before/after' horimono carving before but perhaps some empirical observations will help to clarify matters.

 

The first point to be very clear about is that the hardness of the chisel is only half of the equation. Prior to modern high performance steels craftsman were limited to well forged high carbon steel. Having said that this material is capable of being hardened to what we call 'glass hardness'. In that state, though, it's not much use as a cutting tool because it is generally very brittle (just like glass) and the acute edge of the chisel will very easily chip, even when carving very soft steel. The pressure of being forced through soft iron is enough shatter the fine edge. So what we really need to understand is the balance of hardness and toughness that a carbon steel chisel must have to perform well. This toughness is created by tempering, this is a post hardening process designed to relieve some of the absolute hardness and to restore a degree of 'give' in the metal's make up.

 

In practical terms this means that a tempered high carbon steel chisel cannot cut into nioi or nie. In fact on one occasion I had to inlay some umegane into a blade quite near the hamon. I was able to carve the recess for the plug quite easily with no damage to my chisels except for where I needed to get closest to the hamon. I was about 1 mm away and simply hit steel that could not be chiseled without chipping the edge of the chisel and merely roughly tearing away/chipping at the steel. And I was using a HSS chisel. The abrupt change in hardness from hamon to ji was quite dramatic. I eventually overcame the problem by using diamond tipped grinding burrs to shape an undercut in the hard steel against the hamon.

 

The second point to consider is that even with the hardest and toughest chisels available we still have to think about the material we've carving. To control the carving and to create even and smooth surfaces requires a degree of softness in the steel because if it's not flexible/malleable enough it will simply chip and tear. From a practical point of view it's simply not viable to chisel hardened steel, with even harder tools. It is possible to use various grinding processes like modern jade carvers do but that doesn't seem to be an approach that modern smiths have embraced, thankfully ;)

 

To summarize, horimono have to be cut either before hardening is performed or on areas of sufficiently soft steel.

 

As I understand it, from conversation with modern smiths, areas that are to receive a horimono after yaki-ire are given an extra thick coating of clay to help preserve the softness of the steel where it's most needed.

 

I think that if carvings were done before yaki-ire they would best have been very shallow, and even on each side, so as not to cause warping when quenched. At least one example posted by Kunitaro San shows a carving that crosses into the hamon. It's worth re-emphasising that these horimono by Nobuhide are very shallow. They are more like the shishiai-bori or sukidashi-bori technique of Sugiura Joi than typical deep horimono.

 

The finest horimono I've ever seen was by Honjo Yoshitane and was on a magnificent Kiyomaro blade. An absolutely superb dragon that, for me, is the gold standard of dragons in swords. :)

 

Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth.

 

Regards all,

 

Ford

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Dear mr.Hallam,

 

Thank you very much for your professional comment.

i had never think about this matter until meeting with my Teacher of Nobuhide study, mr.Toyama who live in Sanjo city. He is one of the best collector and researcher of Nobuhide in Japan, as well as he is an expert of steel edged tool. family business 3rd generation of Japanese edged tool distributer. He told me that Horimono before Yakiire. it made me change perspective of Toshin-bori.

I didn't think about progress of material.

however, i saw quite few Nobuhide's Hori and Akitada's on Nobuhide blade. but, some are still can not judge by my eyes only...

 

Best regards,

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You are very welcome Kunitaro San

 

I think the main point is that both approaches are possible but within certain conditions. For example the example you posted where the hamon clearly passes through the edge of the horimono must have been cut before yaki-ire. I do wonder though if in the past doing the horimono before the hardening wasn't more common than we now think. Very interesting topic.

 

regards,

 

Ford

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Back here...

 

 

I think that if the Hori has done before Yakiire, then The Hori is original.

also, needs to confirm the blade itself is an original.

 

These blades are not Original.

most of them are made by Abe Akitada.

 

Shinshinto Taikan

P359 Chikuzen no kami Nobuhide, keio Gan nen 8 gatsu hi

P365 Kurihara Taira Asson Nobuhide, Oite Hokuetsu

P366 Taira Asson Nobuhide, Oite Hokuetsu

P368 Chikuzen no kami Nobuhide, Meiji 9 nen 12 gatsu hi

P369 Kurihara Taira Asson Nobuhide Hori Dosaku, Meiji 10 nen 9 gatsu hi

 

mmmmm  :lipssealed:

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