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a bit eaxtra translation,

the sentence started from middle at p54.

It said that there is a few other Horimono(s) which already Yakiire are exactoly the same as it (ompressive)

(8 not sure about if it talking about this Fudo-myoo,)

 

also, it said the reason is not only Harder material.

but, Quality of Horimono.

 

by this method, the hardness become equal from bottom to top of carving, and it will shine like a jem stone after polish.

 

 

My translation may be not good enough.

 

It said that when you do Yakiire after carving, the surface of carving deeper parts and top parts get Yakire equally.

so, whole carving will shine like jem stone.

 

if you carve after Yakiire, deeper parts which is chiseled in parts is un-tempered , only surface of carving is tempered..

so, it shine differently...

 

mmm, my limited English...

hope it make sense

or anybody could follow up ?

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Kunitaro san, I understand perfectly what you mean about the surface of the horimono being uniformly (evenly) hardened when the horimono is done before yaki-ire, but... If it was so important to the quality of the horimono, I would think they would still do it that way, even today.

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****************************************************************************

Hamon : Gunome, Ashi Nagaku Hairi(Long Ashi), Nie Fukaku tsuki(Deep/Thick Nie), sunagashi, Kinsuji Kakaru.

Boshi : Notare-komi, Omote : Hakikake, Ura : Saki-Maru.

 

Hori

Omote : Bo-hi and Soe-hi, Amano Uzume no Mikoto Ukibori,

Ura : Bo-hi Nobori-ryu ukibori

 

Explaination : Longish Katana, it has very thick Nie on Ha,

Horimono need further study because, it is deep carving and XXX (Hori-kuchi ga Fukaku xxx) missing text.

******************************************************************************

This is Nie-deki blade,

and Horimono is Ato-bori. not by Nobuhide.

 

Do you have photo of this Horimono ?

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Kunitaro san, I understand perfectly what you mean about the surface of the horimono being uniformly (evenly) harded when the horimono is done before yaki-ire, but... If it was so important to the quality of the horimono, I would think they would still do it that way, even today.

We don't know for sure that they don't. At least some of the top horimono-shi anyways. Seems like this was the chosen method by someone who had really studied the art of the horimono and was one of the top artists. I don't think there is any doubt about how he did his, based on the writings in the book. Obviously this was a known fact and there is no reason to question the author in this regard imho. It isn't the easiest way to do it, hence why many nowdays might do it the other way. But since Japanese craftsmen were known to value perfection over ease, it is my guess that if the results are better, then others may have done it that way or might continue to cut them before yakiire and finish the fine details later.

 

Brian

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Thank you very much Eric san,

 

*********************************************

--- Hori-kuchi ga fukaku (deeply carved) a bit different from his normal hori. further more, Amano uzume no mikoto xxx

*********************************************

at least Juyo Zufu is mentioning the horimono is not original.

 

Now, we see, Horimono is completely different story from original.

The Blade is excellent Nie-deki Katana !

but, the Hori.... :rant:

 

Now,we know something about Nobuhide,

at least we can recognize easily Jishin-bori and Ato-bori. :clap:

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We don't know for sure that they don't. At least some of the top horimono-shi anyways. Seems like this was the chosen method by someone who had really studied the art of the horimono and was one of the top artists. I don't think there is any doubt about how he did his, based on the writings in the book. Obviously this was a known fact and there is no reason to question the author in this regard imho. It isn't the easiest way to do it, hence why many nowdays might do it the other way. But since Japanese craftsmen were known to value perfection over ease, it is my guess that if the results are better, then others may have done it that way or might continue to cut them before yakiire and finish the fine details later.

 

Brian

Brian, all I know is - on every example I have seen of modern horimono-shi working, they were engraving on swords already hardened and rough polished. And, I have also never seen a sword at a stage before yaki-ire, or even rough polish, with a horimono - so... that leads me to believe that if anyone does it the other way, it must be uncommon.

 

It is interesting to consider that this method may produce a better horimono, though... I wish we had some high level craftmen to give their view on the discussion...

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The Book Kurihara Nobuhide no Kenkyu (A Study of Kurihara Nobuhide) is published by NBTHK Niigata Branch at 1976.

Many experts and craftsmen were involved on the book.

Sanjo city in Niigata is traditionally famous for Cutting tool . There is a lot of professional personal from Steel industry there.

I think that Most of sword smith and especially Horimono-shi had read this book.

and the book has been in public and having high reputation for 36 years.

If there is any mistake or argument, it should already pointed and fixed.

Therefore, we should observe those information to study further.

it is just pity that only less than 10% of Japanese sword books are translated.

 

BTW, Let us compare the Horimono again.

Let us think what makes different between Nobuhide;s Hori and others.

it is only Technique ? or with the method ? or something else ??

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Kunitaro san,

 

It‘s after all to accept that Nobuhide had his own method of carving Horimono. Nevertheless I add an extremely fine Tanto by Nobuhide, the Hamon in nie-deki and with jishin-bori. This perhaps as evidence that Nobuhide carved Horimono not exclusively on blades in nioi-deki.

 

Eric

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Dear Eric san

 

I am not saying there is no (zero) Horimono with Nie-deki blades.

MOST of Nobuhide's blade with Horimono is a bit weaker deki.

because, his hesitation of Yakiire,

When he do Yakiire with Horimono, he in unconsciously unstable or weaken Temperature of Yakire,

of cause there is Nioi-deki blade which he did consciously.

 

as i wrote " the bright strong hamon with good horimono is the master piece of Master piece"

 

However, the Dragon Horimono at Aoi art, looks a bit different from the dragon which i posted.

 

I just mailed question about this dragon hori to NBTHK Nagaoka/Niigata Branch ( they are the most knowledge about Nobuhide )

i will post when i get answer.

This is for my study as well !

 

PS: mr.Ito Sanpei is mentioning about Atobori of Nobuhide's blades.

there is so many Ato-bori on Nobuhide's blade, some are really well done.

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Kunitaro san,

I can't see how the hardness of a sword after yaki-ire would be an issue for carving, if the horimono was carved before hardening - so... are you saying that you think Nobuhide did a less agressive hardening (nioi-deki) on his swords with horimono because of the time he spent on the horimono, and he was afraid of the blade being damaged (broken or cracked) during yaki-ire and losing all his work?

 

By the way, please don't think I'm trying to be argumentative or trying to discredit what anyone is saying... I'm just trying to make sure I understand , since this is a method I've never heard of before...

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Dear Eric san,

 

I received an answer about The Tanto of Keio 3 nen from mr. Toyama (he is a mamber of Nagaoka brach)

He said that he used to own the Tanto by himself. His note said that is 'ko-nie-deki" and Ha is Shimi-gokoro (some weak parts in ha).

because, of same reason bellow.

 

About Dragon Horimono,

He said that He can not declear Yes or No.... need further study...

 

Dear Adan san,

I don't mind at all !

I enjoy this OPENED DISCUSSION !!!

That is the good about NMB isn't it ?

are you saying that you think Nobuhide did a less agressive hardening (nioi-deki) on his swords with horimono because of the time he spent on the horimono, and he was afraid of the blade being damaged (broken or cracked) during yaki-ire and losing all his work?

 

Yes, but, it is not me saying, the book (auther(s) incl, mr.Toyama) is explaining it,

mr,Toyama said " for sure ! he made carving before Yakiire, it is common sense with us "

 

so, we have to research further by ourselves.

It is very interesting subject to study for myself as well !!!

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at least Juyo Zufu is mentioning the horimono is not original.

Kunitaro san,

I wondered how the Nobuhide Katana, 76.2 cm, had received the Juyo designation despite that there are two ato bori Horimono. I add the description. If I‘m not wrong, this JuTo is described as a masterpiece by Nobuhide on pages 58/59 in the book „Kurihara Nobuhide no Kenkyu“ already mentioned, the Horimono are described as to be very impressive. If so, than they are jishin bori.

 

Eric

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I just Translated the Juyo zufu ?

said " Hori-kuchi ga fukaku (deeply carved) a bit different from his normal hori. further more, Amano uzume no mikotoxxx Need further research."

 

Which is meaning is Hori is not original.

 

Same as Some (old) Hozon paper said "xxx to mei ga aru"

it is meaning Signature is gimei.

 

and the new post's description is not declaring as Jishin-bori.

It is saying "Great Horimono AS YOU SEE"

 

However, Please don't take as personal.

I am completely natural. it is for my study as well.

 

I received another mail from mr.Toyama.

He is a friend of Abe Akitada. mr.Toyama used to visit him discuss about Atobori on Nobuhide's sword before Akitada passed away...

I will write later or tomorrow.

 

Best

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Kunitaro san,

Firstly thank you for your efforts to go deeper in the stories of these Nobuhide works, even with contributions of previous owners, thanks to your relations to the involved persons. Much appreciated.

The zufu reads: deeply carved a bit different from his normal hori.

And furthermore they say: „Great Horimono as you see“.

It is very easy to detect what is right or wrong...the book, pages 58/59.

Frankly would they publish an important work of Nobuhide in this book if not all facts are flawless... a Juyo Token by Nobuhide, who is very famous for his superb Horimono.... in a Reference book like this and the carver of the Horimono is questionable? Perhaps they did because of the outstanding quality of the sword.

 

I was successful to resize the zufu.

 

Eric

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mr.Toyama and i didn't have enough time to talk.

 

He told me that Abe Akitada is one of the souce of the Theory "Carving before Yaskiire".

 

and About Horimono of Ansei 7 Katana (mr.Eric mentioned above) used to be believed as Ato-bori in local collectors,

but, mr.Toyama believe that is Jishin-bori.

 

and He has an episode for this sword which he will tell us next time.

 

Let's wait for an interesting story.

 

Best

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I had nice talk with mr.Toyama in Sanjo Niigata.

He own the sword which we are talking about.

This sword was well known because, it is in the book Kurihara nobuhide no kenkyu.

It was on sale by a dealer 4-5years ago. so, mr.Toyama contact the dealer for question.

The sword had no paper, so, mr.Toyama asked if the dealer can guarantee the sword will get Tokubetsu Hozon, the dealer couldn't (because, Hori was ??).

so, mr.Toyama could buy it with a bit discount. ( It got TH paper later )

after he purchased, and study the blade, as he thought, The Ha has "shimi-gokoro(weak parts) as most of the blade with original Hori. so, he confirmed the Hori is original.

also, he said that from knowing mr.Abe Akitada has done(produced) many Fake Nobuhide sword in the past (during dishonest NBTHK priod).

Good Horimono by Akitada is unrecognizable by even experts.

so, checking Balance of Hamon and Hori is one of the good method to Judge Nobuhide's sword.

He also mentioned there is a few swords in the book is not genuine.

if you want, i will be able to get more info. :crazy:

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Kunitaro san,

I understand that the presence of „shimi-gokoro“ in a Nobuhide‘s ha (Hamon)? is a feature that the Horimono is most likely jishin-bori. Is this shimi-gokoro visible in the oshigata I have added, or is it only visible when the blade in hands?

I add a Horimono by Kawabe Akitada on a blade by Echigo Sadakiyo.

 

Eric

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Thank you for correcting my spelling mistake.

 

about "Shimi-gokoro"

 

"Shimi" meaning is Stain.

for Hamon,  some part (spot) less bright than other.

some kind of weaker parts in Ha.

 

"Shimi-gokoro" is meaning kind of Stainsh, weakish.... more sensitive.

some parts hamon not perfect, 

if you see a few sword side by side. it is easier to compare than seeing one sword. 

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Kunitaro san,

Thank you for explaining the term „shimi gokoro“. Nobuhide is qualified as to be next in skill to Kiyomaro. When there is a Horimono doubtlessly identified as to be a ato-bori, how much does this affect the value of that sword in percentage to a sword with jishin-bori Horimono. I for one would not have a blade by Nobuhide with an ato-bori, and I must say, the Horimono by Aktidada on the gendai sword by Sadakiyo doesn‘t meet my expectations for a superb Horimono. Possibly the photo is not of best quality. I‘m not familiar with gendai-to, but there are others on NMB.

My special interest on this topic is because I own a sword by a tosho of the Kiyomaro Mon.

 

Eric

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Eric san,

 

The Horimono makes Nobuhide sword very special.

Good original horimono makes double its vlaue sometime.

Ato-bori is for make value higer, so, the sword with Normal Hori is 20-50% higher tha without,

But, if you know the Hori is not original, Nobuhide fan will not buy, so, with Ato-bori is leass than half of its value, I think.

However, we must see the quality of the blade, and with good original Horimono.

it will become Juyo Token !!

 

What kind of Kiyomaro school sword do you have ?

Kiyomaro school is very special...

 

an Old Master polisher who is not interested in even Shinto,

His voice changes when he start talk about Kiyomaro...

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Kunitaro san,

Thanks for the informations, much appreciated.

My sword is by Saito Kiyondo, a textbook example, ububa, and extremely fine in make. It‘s koshirae dates from the late Edo period in mounts that were actually worn by its last Samurai owner.

Very detailed informations delivered by Clive Sinclaire on a Nobuhide Tanto with a jishin-bori as I would suppose, and on Kurihara Nobuhide‘s biography is to read on the new site of The To-Ken Society of Great Britain. To scroll down to „London Meeting Report - 28th June 2012 etc.

I would like to correct a neglect on my part, the three great master horimono-shi of the late Edo period are: Yoshitane, Nobuhide and Gassan Sadakazu.

BTW Nobuhide tempered also in suguha and I will add later an example, the Horimono in that blade is atobori.

 

http://www.to-ken.com/page.php?type=home

 

Eric

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Thank you for your information of the Tanto with Yokomuki-Fudo.

Signed : Kurihara Chikuzen no Kami Taira Asson Nobuhide.

 

The Signature is very interesting.

Nobuhide stopped (or Prohibited) to sign "Chikuzen no Kami" since Meiji 3 (1870)

 

However, There is one sword signed "Chkuzen no Kami" and dated Meiji 9 (1876)

And There is similar Tanto (Suguha) with Same Horimono (Yokomuki-Fudo). Signed "Taira Asson Nobuhide" and "Oite Hokuetsu" which is donated to Yahiko Jinja (no Mekugi-ana) at Sanjo city after Nobuhide returned to Sanjo from Edo.

 

so, The Tanto (UK sword register No.121) could be made in between Meiji 7 and Meiji 9.

I agree that the Horimono is Jishin-bori.

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Hi, Kunitaro san,

 

Taira Chokyo-----Taira (no) "Asson" is correct reading .朝臣

Akoma ------------akome is correct reading.赤目

 

And on your web site(Juyo Tanto,Seki-shu Naotsuna ),"出羽" is pronounced "Izuwa" but not as "Dewa".

 

決して批難や攻撃でありませんので、誤解しないでくださいね。 :D

いつもご教示ありがとう御座います、さすがプロだといつも感心しております、それに英語もうまい!。 :D

 

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Dear Morita san,

 

Thank you very much for correction.

I am learning a lot from this forum ! 

also,it is good for me to write, explaining in English.

 

ご教授ありがとうございます。

それから、今度、モリタさんに読んで頂きたい資料がありますので、改めて連絡させていただきます。

 

今後ともよろしくよろしくお願いいたします。

 

聞くは一瞬の恥、知らずは一生の恥、

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