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fuchi stamp- Can you ID it?


Mantis dude

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Greetings to Ken;

Very interesting topic, as I have 2 fuchi that are mounted with their matching kashira, on 2 different swords, that have similar type stamps located inside the fuchi, as you have shown. Have had these in my collection for over 15 years, and have never got a straight answer as to their origin or indication. If my camera was as good as yours, I'd post the stamps for viewing.

 

The fuchi are from totally different schools, of different metals, as well as totally different subject matter, no similarity. I'm sure someone on this viewing board could enlighten us both, as well as others; as to the nature, origin, and reason of this stamped placement. Would be great to see if there is a listing of these stamps, for research into the one's in my collection, as well as others who my post an example of theirs.

 

Checked my records for the 2 fuchi. One is from the ko Mino goto school and the other is kyo kinko.

 

Looking forward to the post's to follow !!

 

Gary Wortham

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Ken, At the last meeting of the Northern ToKen Society (UK) there was a pair of fuchi / gashira with a similar stamp. The pair depicted gold cherry blossoms amid clouds in shakudo nanako. Inside the fuchi was a stamp of the character GO (5) with a dot below it similar to the DAI stamp that you show.

I too have never seen, or perhaps noticed, such things on sword fittings before. Analogous marks are found in German armour from the 16th century, always on the inside and always stamped in such a place to suggest the completed item was held on an anvil to be stamped - in other words the stamp was added after forging. On armour made in Nuremberg, the stamps are the letter N, either in Roman or Gothic script, in various surrounds - some being plain circles, others with pearled borders and so on. I am convinced they are inspection marks put on by the Armourer's Guild to indicate whether the piece was good enough to be polished and incorporated in an expensive armour, or should be left black from the hammer and form part of a munition armour. I have a black and white armour with 5 such marks on the various parts.

If the Japanese marks served a similar function, the fact that they are inside suggests they were not added for the final customer but to indicate something, perhaps quality or perhaps and individual's work, during or after production. They could even be something as banal as a price tag.

Ian Bottomley

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Ian et al,

 

It is interesting topic and you add an interesting point of view, in fact, as I read your post, the stamp on the left actually reminded me of an English silver stamp or something similar. The details of the stamp actually has some character to it that is hard to show in the picture. And I have been trying to search for a "Dai" stamp but that is not lending itself to a quality search- too many dai sho and/or wwII stamped swords appear in the results. Always something new popping up. I hope someone else can comment some more as I and Gary aren't the only ones it appears to have come across this. Thank you for the input.

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WELL !!!!

 

Ken and I have both presented a question of a unique presence of various stamps, inside the fuchi. Ken's photo, shows, not just the single type, of which 2 of mine have, in a different kanji; but of an even more interesting and intriguing 2nd type, with the other.

 

Surely, with the vast knowledge, opinions, and research minded scholars of this board; we would see an abundance of information materializing. This subject matter, is not the " run of the mill " subject material, and worthy of a hard look, with thoughts of discussion.

Thanks.

Gary Wortham

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Gary, I too am surprised these marks have not cropped up in discussions before. What a coincidence that you should post, and I had seen these things within a week. I have given the matter further thought and come up with the obvious - that is they do not seem to occur on tsuba - where they would be much more obvious and would have been noticed. Whatever they were for required a proper punch being made which suggests they had a serious use and not just some transient purpose like the identifying marks added by a hilt maker.

Ian

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Greetings, my understanding is that these stamps are the mark of a craftsman/shop which made an adjustment on the fitting. Apparently these stamps appear on a punch which the craftsman will use to displace metal in order to adjust the fit on to the nakago as needed, often done when fittings are being changed to a new mount.

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If you look at the stamps placement, I think you will see there isn't the functional use you are describing. There are stamps used for tsuba to move metal but not fuchi. I think I am going to change the terminology of this topic from STAMP to HALLMARK which is most likely a better descriptor and more consistent with the terminology used in other similar looking "stamps". I did actually find a dai stamp on a wwi or wwii Japanese medal but it was different than mine and there was no explanation of the stamp plus it is on an item much later in date, so it gave me no further understanding. I have given up on searching on the internet. I did look at a lot of interesting hallmarks from around the world and even Japanese pottery marks so it wasn't all bad.... the mystery continues

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Greetings, let me try to be clearer. The fit which is being adjusted is the opening of the tenjogane over the nakago of a different sword.

 

There are stamps used for tsuba to move metal but not fuchi.

 

Gee, hmm, I'll have to relay this message to the Japanese artisans that use these punches and let them know the punches are simply a figment of their imagination.

 

Normally that's done to a loose tsuba to make sure it can't move around. A fuchi wouldn't move anyway, since it would be solidly mounted to the tsuka. I can't think of any reason they would need to adjust the fuchi's nakago ana. :?:

 

If one is moving the F/K to a different sword, nakago are not all the same and the fit might need to be tweaked, n' est pa?

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Franco,

 

I mostly only know what I have seen and I haven't seen what you are talking about. I have seen fuchi that look like the hole was widened with a file or such. Regardless, I don't think these hallmarks have anything to do with moving metal or making the hole wider. They are stamped off to the sides. Unless you are saying it is a stamp by someone who made changes to the fitting. But since the fitting isn't signed and the hallmark is underneath that doesn't make much sense to me. Then again, making sense isn't always a requirement, although in these arts there usually is some reason for something. While I stop making sense all the time, I don't think that is the explanation for these hallmarks.

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Greetings;

 

As distinct as these 2 " different " as we are calling, "hallmark stamps ", are obviously shown by Ken's close up photos, we see they are not near the edge to adjust the opening of the fuchi, to fit a sword. As, Ken mentioned, the subtle use of a file would be best suited for any such needed change. Also, as Franco had suggested, as to this opening modification by a stamp, the use of 2 different and distinct punches, of a designated motif, would be a statement of identification.

 

Seems a good idea for someone to show these stamps to a Japanese artisan, or other fittings experts. Surely, they are well know to someone, as well as a list of the various stamps used, and by who. Ken's 2 as well as my 2, are all different in motif, yet mine are of the style of the Dai character in the right of the photo, a deeper punch. Ken's other, show on the left, is of a flatter technique of application, and of a different kanji appearance by nature.

 

Sure would enjoy a correct and factual conclusions to this mystery,

 

Gary Wortham

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I know for a fact on a silver platter the hallmarks would be related to the maker, silver content and/or date of manufacture (depending on country and era). As for what Franco is claiming, I am still confused - is it a stamp used to widen a hole in an area that doesn't have a hole? or are you saying it is the mark of a guy that might have made a modification to the size of a hole? insert appropriate avatar here. - I am controlling myself from more wiseass answers since I know things get misconstrued and people don't know the level of obnoxiousness NYers can have without meaning any ill will. I don't take things too serious as an fyi

 

In that last linked example it actually looks like my stamps but done on the kashira.

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Franco can correct me if I have misunderstood, but I think he's saying that the punch marks in Ken's fuchi are from someone trying to make the nakago-ana smaller for a thinner nakago... the same way they punch around a tsuba nakago-ana to tighten the fit around the nakago. post-2413-14196829212857_thumb.gif

 

I have never heard of this being done on fuchi, and it seems like it would be unnecessary since the reason is to stop a tsuba from having play in the nakago-ana and moving around. Like I said, a fuchi is mounted to the tsuka and can't move anyway, so there's no need for it's nakago-ana to be perfectly tight around the nakago. If it WAS necessary, it seems it would be common to see punch marks and even sekigane on fuchi, the way you do on tsuba. Anyway, that's how I see it...

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Clarification:

1) these stamps are the mark of a craftsman/shop which made an adjustment on the fitting, often when being remounted.

2) these stamps appear on a punch which the craftsman will use to displace metal in order to adjust the fit on to the nakago as needed.

3) yes, metal can be displaced to make a fit tighter.

4) apparently there are many of these marks which makes it difficult to ID an individual, unless one is familiar with that particular artisans mark.

 

You'll have to pardon me for getting a bit cranky at some of the assumptions followed by insinuations that my information was less than reliable, when actually it came from a highly skilled Japanese fittings artisan who was kind enough to share his knowledge on these punch marks, which in turn I've shared here. No hard feelings intended.

 

P.S. Koshirae is only as good as the entire fit of every piece. In a contact event the weakest point will eventually become exposed and the result could be catastrophic failure. Which makes fine tuning and attention to detail essential.

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Yes, everyone has an opinion and a reference source to substantiate their point of view. However, if the punch is to move metal in the fuchi, as in Ken's example, why the 2 different motif in the stamp, as well as the 2 other different one's in my 2 different fuchi.

 

I think the answer is more to be discovered and not to be given the flippant answer that has manifested it's self. With the more fragile structure of the fuchi, as to that of a tsuba, the idea of a punch, as to a subtle file application to the fuchi, seems the obvious.

 

Lucky for me that I will take the 2 fuchi in my possession to the 8/2012 San Francisco show, and run these by in the physical, for others to render answers; including the learned Japanese dealers and buyers, that frequent this wonderful show. I will have my usual table, if anyone from this board, cares to drop by and examine, discuss, hear my results from the local experts, and expand the discussion.

 

Gary Wortham

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Just looked over the " motif / kanji " stamps the the kashira example, provided by Henk Jan. Here i see 2 different types of punch marks, and surely, these are not being used to move metal and adjust and opening. They are, for sure done in a purpose, as were done in the fuchi of Ken's example, with a purpose that has yet to be convincingly and factually proven.

 

I know someone else has examples of these subtle punch marks, and the answer will be interesting.

 

Gary Wortham

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Mr. Worthham, my apologies, I didn't realize we had a such a special person as yourself among us with direct connections to dealers and buyers at the San Francisco show, wow! No worries, I won't make this mistake again.

 

P.S. and when you run into Mr. Brian Tschernega at the SF show, please be sure to let him know that when it comes to these punches that he doesn't know what he's talking about. I'm sure he will appreciate the tip.

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Sorry Franco, but I'm not buying the metal displacement theory either...no matter what the source. I can imagine some craftsman would hear about punchmarks and assume they are the ones we all know well on tsuba. But the idea of displacing metal by punching fancy shapes far from the edge of the nakago ana on a thin fuchi just doesn't hold water. Especially since they have been so carefully shaped....when just a flat punch would do that job if it would ever work.

 

However, your reason:

"these stamps are the mark of a craftsman/shop which made an adjustment on the fitting, often when being remounted." does sound logical to me...very possible.

 

The topic will remain locked unless someone can come up with further examples or reasons that go further than speculation or second hand info.

 

Brian

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