rkhunter Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 Hi, I am in the process of buying this CLASSIC YAMATO TEGAI SCHOOL WAKIZASHI and have the piece on hold at the moment waiting for some more information on it. What do you guys think about this piece, any opinions would be great. Cheers, Kai http://new.uniquejapan.com/a-classic-ya ... com=Swords Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 Kai, Not entirely fair to put a seller (and the viewers) on the spot like this during a sale. Especially a seller who is also a member.I don't want us to be the final say if you have already initiated a sale. Ask before putting something on hold. That said, it looks like a decent, honest wakizashi with nice fittings. But $5000+ does buy a lot when it comes to wakizashi. Just a quick look around found many papered wakizashi in that pricerange...from ko-Mihara to Hizen. It is o-suriage, which is ok in a Koto, but not something preferred. End result, you will have to decide what you like and what appeals to you. If you have looked around in that price bracket, and that one appeals to you..go for it. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkhunter Posted March 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 Hi Brian, I was only asking for some opinions while I wait for info regarding the sword from the seller. I did not mean to put anyone on the spot over this and I thank you for your input. I know the seller is a member here and I did not post this to cause any problems, I am new to collecting Japanese swords. Cheers, Kai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkhunter Posted March 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 Hi again Brian, I over looked what you said here regarding: It is o-suriage, which is ok in a Koto, but not something preferred. I just googled o-suriage, does that mean this sword I am looking at has been cut down in shape and size? If this is the case how do you tell if a sword has been cut down in size by looking at it? Cheers, Kai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbt Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 The nakago is cut kiri, straight across , and there are two mekugi ana . I believe that is what Brian is referring to. I am also very new to nihonto . Nice looking sword imo . Kim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kusunokimasahige Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 I bet you really want the kitchen knives... KM The sword is nice looking imho, suriage nakago, not kiri/ichimonji from the looks of it. Fittings look nice as does the saya. The blade itself looks as if it was polished many times during the swords history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokaido Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 Hello Kai, reading your question about o-suriage, I hazard a guess that you haven't yet read the FAQ or the recommended readings? It is all about serious study and experience. But one thing is easy to learn (historic development of swords, see faq): there were virtually no shinogi-tsukuri Wakizashi in existence during the Nambokucho-Jidai. So any blade of this type must be of later manufacture or it must be cut down from a (earlier) longer sword. (I omit the Ko-Tachi, but those show a clearly different shape, anyway). On a closer look, in the case of the pictured wakizashi, the shape of the nakago (including the kiri tip, mentioned by Kim) and shape of the blade should give you a clue. PLEASE study the most recommended readings. After you aquired at least some basic knowlegde, you will be able to question some of the statements of a seller or make your own conclusions about those statements. When in doubt, ask before buying. Greetings Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 Hi, Doesn't look like Yamato Tegai to me and this school goes until end of Muromachi (even Shinto era) and not Nanbokucho like seller says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkhunter Posted March 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 Hello, thanks to everyone who has gave me feedback on this. I have to study allot more into these swords as it is obvious I know hardly anything about this world of collecting. Cheers, Kai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Doffin Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 Hi guys, 1st, let me say that this wakizashi appears to be a nice blade and what I'm about to say has nothing to do with it in particular. This post, another under Kodogu about a tsuba that may have been purchased too dearly, and so many other posts on NMB by beginners too anxious to own Nihonto, bring us back to a very familiar refrain. If you're new to this study and you have money burning a hole in your pocket and you simply must buy something, pretend you're listening to the chickens. Can you hear them off in the distance? Do you know what they're saying? Listen carefully. Book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book. Study first: attend shows; look at great stuff; ask questions; join organizations which publish; buy books; read and reread them; and then buy swords and kodogu. Only with knowledge will you make intelligent decisions about buying. Grey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy R Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 1973 papers... Warning flag Yamato Tegai... Hardly Not to be negative but there are much better investments in the $6000 range. I mean just look at those fittings. Sub-par at best. And look closely at the kanteisho. Do you see what I see? Books, yes, but remember that first buy? It is like an unquenchable thirst. It is okay to get a Nihonto without being an expert. He just needs some HONEST guidance. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veli Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 Hi, Doesn't look like Yamato Tegai to me and this school goes until end of Muromachi (even Shinto era) and not Nanbokucho like seller says. I guess the attribution to Tegai (手掻) suggests that the blade is Nanbokucho or earlier. A Muromachi jidai blade would be attributed as Sue-Tegai (末手掻), wouldn't it? I have myself a mumei wakizashi in Shirasaya that has been attributed to Tegai. Veli Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drbvac Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 I have a ken of all things that is attributed Sue-Tegai but - if I had an extra 6 grand and no real preference for era our friend Stephen had a gunto on the for sale section for a little over half the price that I am sure I would purchase first Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 Hi, I guess the attribution to Tegai (手掻) suggests that the blade is Nanbokucho or earlier IMHO tsukurikomi and nagasa do not match that era. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 nagasa Sorry Jacques but you have to explain what is the relationship between Nagasa and the era when this blade has been forged and then shortened. On a very shortened blade (wakizashi), from a picture, it is almost impossible to deduce the era of forge of this blade.. Unless having a very distinctive feature, no one is able to make the distinction between a late Kamakura blade from an early Nambokucho one., or a late Nambokucho blade from an early Muromachi one. Concerning the paper, taking into account its value and the school atitribution, I am not worried of it being a fake - It is not worth imitationg such a certificate (even if the colour is different on the following one) it , stamps are Ok .. http://www.nihontocraft.com/japanese_sword_papers.html It is a fine blade taking into account its age. Now, concerning the price, what is it worth? .... Like all blades, the price you are ready to pay for it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 Hi, Jean, Nagasa = 46.5 cm what would be the nagasa before shortening ? What is the usual nagasa for a tachi in late Kamakura or Nanbokucho era ? Nothing on this sword shows a shortening of more 40 cm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbt Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 From what I have read, it has been shortened at least the distance between the two mekugi ana . I'm sure someone else will correct me but that is how I understand it. Kim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy R Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 Jaques, many people would argue it is definitely worth having a fake paper otherwise there would be no fakes period. Second if you are going to forge a paper for a sword with Mokume hada, a nice subtle suguha hamon, it was shortened and the original shape was not discernable and there was any evidence of age whatsoever, you would say Tegai, Yamato. If that is you were an unscrupulous seller. I am not saying the seller of this sword is unscrupulous (as i am sure he is not the one who drafted the document) i am just speaking in the most general of terms regarding the possible reasoning for forgeries at the ouset. The first five years of the 70s were notorious for the proliferation of fake papers and also papers being issued indiscriminately by recognized organization/s. Dr. Homma and Dr.Sato may not have set out on a capitalist venture but capitalist it became and along with it the corruption that always follows. Many articles and studies document this phenomenon. There should be a more readily available and comprehensive archive made available by the organization itself. But why would the organization in question advertize its own history of corruption? It would seem that such an institution would not survive such corruption, but hey, just look at the (omitted). Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nagamaki - Franco Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 Hello, thanks to everyone who has gave me feedback on this. I have to study allot more into these swords as it is obvious I know hardly anything about this world of collecting. Cheers, Kai Food for thought; agree, yes, how many Yamato swords have you seen, Tegai in particular? Kamakura to Nambokucho is a pretty big window with significant changes from beginning to end, where exactly does this sword fit in? What does Tokubetsu kicho signify? What determines mediocre from excellent in Yamato Tegai work, hint, who were the big names smiths in this school, have you seen examples of their work, studied the features of their work, does this sword demonstrate those features, and if not, why not, hmmm? This sword has been shortened, how else might it have been reshaped? How good is the current polish? These are just some of the thoughts that student collectors should be considering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 Nagasa = 46.5 cm what would be the nagasa before shortening ? Nobody can guess, neither you or I, Jacques. I have seen Juyo wakizashi kanteied to Ichimonji smiths or Bizen smiths with shorter nagasa .... it has been shortened at least the distance between the two mekugi ana Kim, that's a truism, in fact much more. Neither existing mekugi ana seem to be punched. The first five years of the 70s were notorious for the proliferation of fake papers and also papers being issued indiscriminately by recognized organization/s. Jim, Whatever you say, you say it by earsay and you have no statistics on the topic. The problem was that fake certificates were issued for swords which were blatantly kanteied to famous smiths but of course wrongly. Nobody is going to issue a fake certificate to Yamato Tegai. Would have it been a fake, it would have been kanteied to Kanenaga or Kanekiyo or a well other Tegai known smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 Hi, I have seen Juyo wakizashi kanteied to Ichimonji smiths or Bizen smiths with shorter nagasa .... Shinogi zukuri ? I would like to see one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
runagmc Posted March 25, 2012 Report Share Posted March 25, 2012 Jacques, here's one. I don't know the nagasa but it looks pretty short. Ichimonji Sukemune, Juyo token Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted March 25, 2012 Report Share Posted March 25, 2012 http://tsuruginoya.com/mn1_3/f00008.html Nagasa: 45,5cm I remember on Aoi-Art having seen: A Rai Kunitoshi cut in half, both pieces available, the lower one being signed, the upper one a wakizashi A juyo token wakizashi by a soden Bizen smith coming from a cut down tachi Of course, both shinogi zukuri ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric H Posted March 25, 2012 Report Share Posted March 25, 2012 let facts talk, in my library I have 2 osuriage mumei Yamato Tegai Wakizashi: A) shinogi zukuri - 43.8 cm - sori 1.1 cm - 2 mekugi ana - late Nanbokucho itame hada well grained - niedeki suguha hamon and ashi, uchinoke work B) shinogi zukuri - 45.0 cm - sori 1.0 cm - 1 mekugi ana - Nanbokucho itame hada well grained - niedeki suguha hamon with ashi, strong bright hamon Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted March 25, 2012 Report Share Posted March 25, 2012 Hi, Jean, It seems the ichimonji Sukemune you quote was a kodachi as it is said in the description. However coming back to the sword discussed what are the features leading to a late Kamakura/Nanbokucho yamato tegai blade ? About the Rai Kunitoshi, i don't think you can take it as a good sample. viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4820&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=kunitoshi&start=0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted March 25, 2012 Report Share Posted March 25, 2012 Jacques, Concerning the Rai Kunistoshi, you can search NMB Topics and you will find the reference. The Osafune wakizashi Blade had an horimono, A lot of people watching Aoi-Art can testify. It was sold around 1,6 M yens and I am sure you saw it (it was about 1,5 year ago). As I said before, no one can affirm, with 100% of certainty that this blade, O suriage as it is, is late Kamakura or Muromachi. FYI, I have seen in the past, an example where Japanese experts were confronting, some saying that a given O suriage tachi was late kamakura, the others late Nambokucho and no one referring to the suguta for the Kantei but to the hada. Yamato blades are scarce in France and I am not sure having seen more than one or two in 30 years. Even at DTI, you have to look very hard to find such blades, they are not fashioned. So I shall not even venture to say if this wakizashi hada fits or not the Tegai school and even less Late Kamakura or early Muromachi. Thus, I shall not contest the Kanteisho :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UniqueJapan Posted March 25, 2012 Report Share Posted March 25, 2012 Jean, thank you for your posts to this discussion. I also appreciate the rather lively posts amongst members for the Tegai wakizashi that is currently listed on Unique Japan. The passion for Japanese swords is clearly palatable, and I think that is just terrific. Although we try our best to take quality photos of the swords listed on Unique Japan, as we all know, the subtle beauty of a sword, unless it is reviewed in person, can never quite be captured. I believe this is especially true for this particular Tegai piece. It’s clearly a very old beauty when you feel it in hand. As correctly pointed out, (Ko) Tegai ran until the Nanbokucho period, and it is essentially impossible to deduce when exactly it was made as it is most definitely an o-suriage nakago. Elements that can be most definitely admired are kinsuji, nijuba and the kaen boshi, a feature seen on Tegai swords, is truly brilliant. The blade sparkles under the light. It never looks the same way twice, always finding something new to explore. This also applies for the fittings, which I must say, carry an understated elegance. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, which makes the appreciation of art open to all. The vast majority of our swords are chosen in person in Japan, and our website generally acts more like a gallery for the majority of clients. I naturally stand very much behind this sword, as any other piece listed online or that we introduce to clients in private and at our shows. If a client cannot review a sword in person before he or she makes the decision, then I am happy to refund the purchase in full if it doesn’t meet (or exceed) their expectations upon arrival. Perhaps the greatest takeaway is for us all to continue our insatiable appetite for knowledge in the subject of Japanese swords. At the end of day, the more we know, the less we know, and I think that’s quite humbling. Pablo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted March 25, 2012 Report Share Posted March 25, 2012 Pablo, To be blunt, I very much doubt, there are more than 15 people on this board able/qualify to kantei a sword to Tegai group or date this sword, taking into account what I have seen with Japanese experts on the subject.... Above all without having held the blade. BTW, I presume the blade pictures were taken in Japan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric H Posted March 25, 2012 Report Share Posted March 25, 2012 I remember on Aoi-Art having seen: A Rai Kunitoshi cut in half, both pieces available, the lower one being signed, the upper one a wakizashi This is the osuriage Wakizashi 45.5 cm attributed to Rai Kunitoshi, cut off the mei of the original Katana. What should be wrong with the origami?...all I can see is that the nagasa is specified in a perhaps unusual manner, as also in the torokusho. If someone does not agree with the attribution to Yamato Tegai, he should kindly clearly and unmistakably say what is wrong in his opinion...and ideally indicate the "right" attribution... Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UniqueJapan Posted March 25, 2012 Report Share Posted March 25, 2012 Jean, Yes, photos of the Tegai wwer taken in Japan, and the blade is currently there. Thanks for all. With regards, Pablo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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