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Blades and kodogu-modern and by non-Japanese: What is it?


cabowen

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But, I've yet to see any of these venerated old iron guards exhibit convincing evidence that they did in fact serve as hand protection against wayward sword cuts.

 

Ford, Chris hit on the topic of tsuba providing balance for the blade, but tsuba also prevent the swordsman's hand(s) from sliding forward onto the blade. Things get pretty slippery when there's blood everywhere.

 

Ken

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As one who aspires to make swords in the Japanese style, I can say that i do it because there is an artistic and functional aspect to the swords that resonates within me. As a non-Japanese, what I make is not Japanese, but it represents my best interpretation of nihonto that i am physically and emotionally able to achieve, after many years of studying Japanese art and history, martial arts, and the sword. For some, none of this will be relevant and they will be uninterested in my efforts. Hopefully, there will be a few who will be inspired enough to want to have one of my efforts, though even early on in my smithing journey (6 years now) I can see the truth in Ford Hallam's comment about the futility of trying to make a living at it. The work can be its own reward.

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Dear Ken, that's exactly what Ford said in his post (Chris didn't post the whole thing). Ford said (just before the part that Chris quoted:

 

And if required any disc of non-ferrous metal in the position of a tsuba will stop the hand sliding onto the blade and provide at least as much protection as the average Owari or Kyo-sukashi guard. Functional requirement met...methinks.
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Steve makes very nice blades; he sent me three of them to resell back in December. But I have to admit that getting any of our sword society members interested enough to buy them has been more than I've been able to do so far. I hadn't considered the non-Japanese aspect of the lack of sales, mostly because as an engineer, metallurgist, & sword swinger, I'm far more interested in the construction & functionality, rather than who made the blades.

 

However, I'm beginning to see that the source may be more important than the appearance & usability....

 

Ken

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\If we apply your "must be made for the real use" criteria, most modern "Japanese Swords" would fail because few of them are being made with the intention of cutting human flesh and bone.

 

I have yet to see a modern made blade that could not cut flesh and bone if need be....

 

Therefore, I don't think that you can fairly disqualify tsuba that have traded some small amount of functionality for beauty (or weren't made merely for battle).

 

Traded a small amount of functionality? According to Ford they weren't even made to be mounted, much less used. Seems to me they have traded all their functionality.....

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Ok, you might not like this, and I certainly dont want this interesting discussion to spiral downwards but the entire discussion between ford and Chris gives me the following thought:

 

I have obtained these three beautiful and papered metal objects.

 

img_3382_2.jpg

 

The first was made in 1980 by Kunihara yoshimori, the second made in the early 1930s by Yoshikawa Onezawa and the third, which is the most beautiful item was made in the early 1790's by Hashida Kunimoto.

 

Now I see only beautiful art, the aesthetics in the circular shape, the polishing of the metal, the crystalline structure, as well as the gorgeous patina of the second and third art-object.

 

But when I showed them to the curator of the Japanese Power Drill Association he told me that even though they were fine objects I should first try to drill with them, because basically they were tools, and were meant as such, and definetely not art..... He then went on to show me the absolutely gorgeous diamond drill bit made by Kamagawa Yoshimura in 1278 and explained to me that even though modern day collectors saw it as the best aesthetic mix of form and function, Kamagawa Yoshimura used this to drill the perfect hole, which still is to be seen in the old shrine of Makita in Higo.

 

As he told me, the pefection of the drilled hole and its subsequent division between matter and emptiness mattered more.

 

:)

 

KM

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Chris said

I have yet to see a modern made blade that could not cut flesh and bone if need be....

Yes of course, but Chris, you also said that soft metal tsuba or the artistic tsuba that Ford (and Natsuo, Shomin, etc.) makes are not tsuba because they were not made primarily for the purpose of fighting another human (although you were apparently mistaken about the true purpose for a tsuba - hands sliding onto the blade instead of blocking sword strikes). Therefore, using your logic, those modern swords are not true or authentic because they were not made primarily for the purpose of cutting human flesh and bone. Any of Ford's (or Natsuo's) tsuba that I have seen would serve the purpose of a tsuba "if need be...." (to use your own words) You can't have it both ways.....

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Now correct me if I am wrong but it seems from the preceding discussion, that art aside, the functionality of a blade is to cut and all nihonto modern or otherwise do that, so they are by definition functional. In the case of the tsuba however we are still bickering about what the functionality really was and does a pretty picture on it alter that functionality in any way? (assuming that we eventually establish the truth or otherwise of that functionality). Is that about where we are at in this 'total losing of the plot' discussion of the moment?????? :D

 

The purpose and functionality of tsuba has been argued to death before, with no convincing resolution. Nor will it be resolved on this forum. Moreso because the entire topic seems to have devolved into a discussion between the supporters of the Ford Hallam (pure art society) on one side and the less emotive hence more realistic reasoning of Chris Bowen on the other. Most of us would fall somewhere between the two with various biases according to the individual. For myself, I tend more toward Chris's reasoning. The tsuba had a purpose other than decoration. We do not know exactly what that was, but it was a functional component of the sword otherwise why put it on an otherwise utilitarian common plain iron mounted weapon meant for low level warriors? Is it art? It certainly has become art and is made by other than Japanese craftsmen. Would I collect or consider collectable anything that was not made by a Japanese craftsman or after swords fell out of use in Japan? No I would not. As a martial artist I would and do use a shinsakuto both made and mounted by Japanese craftsmen in Japan, but I do not consider it or its mounts collectable. In this I am for whatever reasons I may have, probably fairly typical.

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Yes of course, but Chris, you also said that soft metal tsuba or the artistic tsuba that Ford (and Natsuo, Shomin, etc.) makes are not tsuba because they were not made primarily for the purpose of fighting another human (although you were apparently mistaken about the true purpose for a tsuba - hands sliding onto the blade instead of blocking sword strikes). Therefore, using your logic, those modern swords are not true or authentic because they were not made primarily for the purpose of cutting human flesh and bone. Any of Ford's (or Natsuo's) tsuba that I have seen would serve the purpose of a tsuba "if need be...." (to use your own words) You can't have it both ways.....

 

I have said they are not tsuba because they were never meant to be mounted or used as tsuba. They are made as art first and foremost, without concern for functionality. It was never the intent of the maker that they be used. They are art pieces, pure and simple. Traditionally, tsuba were made to mount and serve a functional purpose first. Their decoration was secondary, not primary. Never mind if these art pieces MAY be functional, they were not created to BE functional. I'm sorry, but beautiful as they may be, to me they have the form but not the spirit...

 

And tsuba clearly are there to do more than simply keep one's hands off the blade.

 

Modern swords, as I have said, ARE made with function in mind and indeed, will function just fine. Ask any sword smith. I have heard this first hand from dozens of them and have seen enough of them cut through a variety of materials to know that they cut well.

 

We can try a little test if you like....We can put your hand under one of these soft metal art tsuba and take a modern sword and have a whack at it. If you truly think that a modern sword is not functional, you should have no problem with this as surely it won't cut. Likewise, if you think these art tsuba are functional, they will surely protect you....

 

Having see modern swords cut through soft metal tsuba, I know this would end with a trip to the ER....

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Now correct me if I am wrong but it seems from the preceding discussion, that art aside, the functionality of a blade is to cut and all nihonto modern or otherwise do that, so they are by definition functional. In the case of the tsuba however we are still bickering about what the functionality really was and does a pretty picture on it alter that functionality in any way? (assuming that we eventually establish the truth or otherwise of that functionality). Is that about where we are at in this 'total losing of the plot' discussion of the moment?????? :D

 

You almost have it.....

 

The discussion has been diverted by extraneous arguments about what the true function of a tsuba is and whether a soft metal tsuba can meet those functional requirements....These are red herrings....

 

The point is these "art tsuba", as Ford himself has pointed out, were NEVER MADE TO BE USED. They were made first and foremost, as "art". Therefore, regardless of how a tsuba is suppose to function, or whether or not soft metal is appropriate for a functionable tsuba, we know these were never made to be used and are thus art for art's sake....How much clearer can that be?

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I know this would end with a trip to the ER....

 

And probably although not necessarily, a trip to the togishi. :D

 

I cant help but agree with Chris here. Soft metal tsuba do not and cannot substantially resist a moderately good blade in the hands of an experienced/trained swordsman. It is easily demonstrable. Forged iron rules in that regard. We are then left only with the hypothesis that soft metal tsuba are primarily art, and sometimes where they are clearly not intended for mounting, art for art's sake. And yes, some of them are quite beautiful to behold, but not to rely upon for any meaningful functionality.

 

Now, what was the original question?????? whatever it was, it has not yet been answered.

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Soft metal tsuba do not and cannot substantially resist a moderately good blade in the hands of an experienced/trained swordsman. It is easily demonstrable.

 

What exactly do you mean by "resist a moderately good blade"?

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Alex

 

What part of what I said dont you understand? Given the context of Chris's post concerning his proposed cutting test and my agreement with him, I would have thought my meaning was quite evident. If it is my choice of term 'Moderately good blade', then it would fall into a category somewhat less than a masterpiece. My own shinsakuto is a moderately good (serviceable) blade. I guess serviceable is the operative term here. It has no kisu, kitae ware, cuts well, handles well etc, but is not by a big name modern smith. :)

If 'resist' is puzzling you, then substitute the word 'withstand' as in the case of a cut made by the subject sword directed against the tsuba-like object in question.

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Dear Chris, you are not consistent in your logic or argument, so I guess it is pointless to continue. Listen guys, if tsuba were meant to stop swords, they'd be shaped like the small prongs of a jute. Chris, it's simply not fair for you to argue that modern art tsuba (that may not have been meant to be mounted but could still serve the purpose adequately) are not true tsuba, but then ignore the same logic applied to modern swords. While there are certainly shibayama tsuba shaped art and other okimono in the shape of a tsuba that are purely decorative, but the art tsuba that we are talking about could serve the purpose of a tsuba. Anyway, anyone who believes that the tsuba shaped objects (in Chris' terminology) made by masters like Natsuo and Shomin are not "tsuba" is simply ludaChris :D (Chris, next time I'm in Japan, we'll try you test and then we'll try one of mine so you can see how a weapon really works.)

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What part of what I said dont you understand?......If 'resist' is puzzling you, then substitute the word 'withstand' as in the case of a cut made by the subject sword directed against the tsuba-like object in question.

 

I currently take what youre saying to mean that if you layed a soft metal tsuba on a worktop and gave it a whack with your kizu-less shinsakuto, you could split it.

However your assertion that soft metal tsuba are, practially speaking and for want of a better expression 'not fit for purpose' - and that this assertion is "easily demonstrable", is bold to say the least.

 

As far as I can see, to "demonstrate this" one would need to face off a significant number of cloned samurai in various circumstances, the only difference between them being that one group would have iron tsuba and the other would have soft metal tsuba, all other things being equal - and see which group had more men standing at the end...or something...

 

Even if your shinsakuto could split a soft metal tsuba, what does this prove? Helmets can be split and all swords can be broken. If soft metal were really too weak to make tsuba from, why are there examples of lacquered leather tsuba?

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Alex

I currently take what youre saying to mean that if you layed a soft metal tsuba on a worktop and gave it a whack with your kizu-less shinsakuto, you could split it.

 

That is not what I said, that is your crude interpretation of what I said.

 

As far as I can see, to "demonstrate this" one would need to face off a significant number of cloned samurai in various circumstances, the only difference between them being that one group would have iron tsuba and the other would have soft metal tsuba, all other things being equal - and see which group had more men standing at the end...or something...

 

Then you dont see very far do you? I'm not even going to pull your assertions apart, they are to say the least overly imaginitive, and therefore not worthy of challenge.

 

Hasnt this run its course yet to arrive at the inevitable 'agreeing to disagree' culmination?

What about the original question posed in this thread??????

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Its already been stated quite well by Chris and subsequently contested by others . Why would I want to repeat all that has gone before merely for the sake of confrontation? Read back on this thread and the other related threads referred to within it. :)

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If soft metal guards are to be discounted as being 'unfit' for purpose then we must discount a significant segment of the Higo works. The Higo clan were regarded as being pretty much a 'no-nonsense' bunch judging from what I've read, yet they seem to have had no objections to Hirata Hikozo's quite delicate/thin soft metal offerings. Perhaps the opinions of 17th cent. Higo warriors is/was more relevant in this discussion than the imaginings and projections of 21st century Westerners who've never ridden a horse into battle and relied on a sword as a side arm. The men who surrounded Hosokawa Tadatoki were for the most part veteran battle hardened warriors who's taste and choices must be regarded as being authentic and legitimate in the fieled...surely.

 

The aesthetic that very strongly informed the earlier works of their most noted masters was that of the tea ceremony and if we consider their tsuba it's impossible to say that their 'functional' aspect was paramount. They are clearly conceived in their forms and with the decorations they have to express a particular artistic/philosophical taste. Any combat function appears of little consequence. I mean, how decadent and corrupt is an applied shakudo Odawara rim? What a silly and frivolous affectation to wraparound a piece of millitary hardware...what disgusting nonsense will they come up with next? "Tiny delicate gold cury wirly spirals maybe...a bit girly but hey, maybe it'd catch on".....suggested a chap called Matashichi. :lol: ;)

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Again, and for the last time, whether or not a soft metal is fit to meet the functional requirements necessary for a tsuba is a separate issue that can only be argued in the context of legitimate tsuba-that is, tsuba made for use. What does it matter what the tsuba was made from if the "tsuba" was never meant to be mounted on a sword in the first place?

 

It is the context of their creation that determines their validity as tsuba- if the craftsman that made them did not make them to be USED as tsuba, but rather as "art", then they can not be considered tsuba in the same sense as those that were made to be used are considered tsuba. They can only be called tsuba-like metal sculptures.....

 

And for present day artists working in an anachronistic medium, I think that creating art is all that can be hoped for.

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And for present day artists working in an anachronistic medium, I think that creating art is all that can be hoped for.

 

I think I'd have to agree with you on that...and that obviously applies equally to swords too then ;-)

 

As I wrote at the very start of this thread, it all hinges on how we regard tsuba, either as historic artefact, with some aesthetic aspects and aspirations OR as an ever evolving art-form that had it's inception in the practical requirements of a weapon.

 

For myself, as a maker and someone who has trained with swords, the functional requirements are always in mind. The size, shape and applied decoration must never be such that they will impede any functional demands. These requirements are not difficult to meet, even subconsciously, when one is well grounded in what constitutes good form. I would suggest this was the attitude that pervaded most studios of the Edo period even as they developed the decorative and artistic aspects of the form.

 

In short, I think that the division between primary functionality and mere decoration is a false one and not one the original users would have recognised. In much the same way as pre-modern Japan made no distinction between art and craft and didn't have a word for aesthetics in the way we use it today. It seems to be all these 'definitions' as we've been discussing are all detached projections that may, in actuality, have no basis in reality at all. I think the Torigoe inspired Gospel is an artificial and idiosyncratic rationalisation and attempt to codify things long after the fact. It forms part of the cult of Bushido as espoused by Nitobe and as such is best regarded as hagiography, in my humble opinion, that is. :roll: ;)

 

With reference to the Shinsengumi incident that resulted in fingers all over the place. Having seen a few of the mountings these men carried it is clear they were using pretty basic and functional tsuba...yet fingers were lost never-the-less. Not all that effective in purely practical terms then...methinks. :dunno:

 

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I hope that settles the tsuba discussion. There have been many soft metal tsuba in use by Samurai themselves, and a soft-metal tsuba which is made of hammered and heated soft-metal is also quite strong. Whether the tsuba was used as hand guard like the medieval battle swords in Europe is another debate.

 

The original question was in what way modern day swords/Japanese art can be considered as Japanese especially when made by foreigners in the Japanese tradition...

 

Well I must say that the Japanese themselves also do not adhere to tradition in many cases. Where a smith of old used two helpers who hammered away these days power tools are used even by National Treasures.

 

If the power hammer used in this following video by a Japanese smith is not modern, what is ?

 

http://youtu.be/qEbYActfa-I

 

What makes his blade a GendaiTo or NihonTo and Western blades made with Tamahagane in the same tradition not ?

 

KM

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I wonder who among us would have the nerve to tell this gentleman that the tsuba on his sword probably isn't a 'real' tsuba by their personal definition? I rather suspect the perceived insult might result in an abrupt 'termination' of the conversation.... :badgrin:

 

post-229-14196826615345_thumb.jpg

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Again, and for the last time, whether or not a soft metal is fit to meet the functional requirements necessary for a tsuba is a separate issue that can only be argued in the context of legitimate tsuba-that is, tsuba made for use.

Everything made has a use, even if the use is decorative. A tsuba designed primary for decoration is still a tsuba, and will perform as one when put to use as such. A decorative Toby jug can still be used to drink beer perfectly well from, even if it wasnt intended for the purpose.

 

And for present day artists working in an anachronistic medium, I think that creating art is all that can be hoped for.

I thought thats pretty much what artists hope for - to create art...

 

Read back on this thread and the other related threads referred to within it.

I also referred to a thread and wouldnt have if I wasnt familiar with its contents, and those of the others mentioned.

 

Why would I want to repeat all that has gone before merely for the sake of confrontation?

 

The purpose is not confrontation, it is to clarify why you believe soft metal tsuba to be unfit for purpose. No one seems to have been able to do so yet... despite a lot of assertions and hot air implying any tsuba which isnt made of iron shouldnt be taken seriously as part of a weapon, or shouldnt be actually used - which we all know to be nonsense! :rotfl:

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