armour opinion

[John A Stuart]

This is for the armour guys. It is related to Japanese armour peripherally and a tracking of technology question. Does this picture reveal a Japanese influence or is it more Chinese do you think?

[Peter Bleed]

John

Well, gee! Does this show Japanese (!) influence? In my opinion, the answer is "NO". There is Japanese influence - indeed there is Japanese ARMOR that was collected - in Siberia and the high arctic. Read Bogoras's volume on the Chukchi. He shows some armor that is certainly Japanese. But I think this is an example of older style of armor that was widely distributed in East Asian. It goes from what is today south China - eg the Lolo armor - up thru Siberian and to the Beringian New World. There is Ainu armor that looks like this armor, but it has to be much older than what we might think of as "Japanese armor." In that light, I think it is better to suggest that Japanese armor shows influence from this older style.

So, did you buy this armor over the weekend?

Peter

[watsonmil]

Dear John,

The Laminar construction and style are more reminisant of Siberian and Alaskan Eskimo ( yes Eskimoes wore armour ).

... Ron Watson

[John A Stuart]

It is said the Koryaks got this tech from the Tungeses. I have other pics of Ainu and Inu armour bone and metal, but, was thinking the tech came northward from China, maybe even Tibet. No, I didn't buy it. It must be tradeware, no? They had no smths capable of making plate did they? John

[estcrh]

Not enough detail to tell if it is individual scales laced together (lamellar) or solid rows laced together (laminar), you would have to see that in order tell if the method of construction resembled the way Japanese armor was constructed.

[uwe]

Obviously not made for fast movement

What puzzle me is, that this "half shield" is apparently fastened to the right arm in a way.

 

Uwe

[IanB]

John, Lamellar armour actually has its origins in classical antiquity. I was fortunate to be present at the examination of a lump of mud from the Roman Fabrica at Carlisle that supplied the western end of Hadrian's wall. You couldn't see much, but an X-ray revealed three curving rows of scales from a throat guard. As soon as I saw the image I said 'NODOWA' - the archaeologists poo-poo'd the idea since according to them the Romans didn't use throat guards. Eventually they decided it was a neckguard from a helmet, but the inside curve was far too small. Rather satisfyingly, a tombstone turned up a bit later showing a warrior wearing -- guess what ? Yup a scale neckguard.

This Roman lamellar, including lorica squamata (and part of one of these turned up at Carlisle), was of iron or bronze scales held together by turns of bronze wire - almost certainly on a leather or fabric backing. Following the Romans, the idea spread eastwards and lamellar coats fastened down the front occur in Turkey, Persia and Central Asia, ending up in China and finally Japan. These were held together by leather thongs and a lot survive from places like Tibet. Interestingly, only one occurrence is recorded from Europe - from the grave pits from the Battle of Visby on Gotland (1361). The Scandinavians travelled through Russia and traded in Constantinople. Almost certainly the lamellar armour came from there.

Ian

[Mark Green]

Hi Gang,

Not much to add to Ian's post.

I feel Lamellar armor was likely the most prevalent armor next to chain mail. From Eastern Europe and on East, to the end of the world. The Mongols took it everywhere, that it wasn't already. The Samurai, already had a good armor design for use in their style of combat. It is very similar, just coated with lacquer, and laced for ease of movement with a bow.

Having worn many armors, for days at a time, in full SCA combat. I can tell you. Nothing is more comfortable to wear for extended periods. Samurai armor is next in line. All others, including chain are very restrictive and slow you down badly, relative to how much protection they provide.

Ian, I made that Wisby armor, Out of very thick bison rawhide, and wore it for many years. It was very comfortable.

I still wear one very much like it today. Very protective, for the amount of weight.

Wasn't there a partial Lamellar armor found somewhere in the mid east or maybe Turkey from BC days?

Mark

[Bugyotsuji]

Those shields look like they could have a multitude of uses, not least as protection against a cold wind. You could start a fire with a flint within that shelter, and it might act to direct your voice or help you pick up distant sounds. With luck it might even stop a glancing arrow or sword blade. Do they keep their arrows in a quiver down their backs?

[Mark Green]

IMHO, the picture is staged. This armor would likely have not been in use when this pic was taken. The back shields were more then likely reindeer, or seal hide. Probably a wild screen more then anything else.

The armor could have been very old, and the guy with the camera, got these fellas to dress up, and look mean. very much like old west, and African, and war photo guys from all periods of history have.

The koryak are indigenous peoples of NE Siberia. It is a very harsh life even today. I'm sure they have made war with their neighboring clans for ever. But, they were nearly wiped out by disease, and invading Cossacks, and others, likely even the Mongols, in the day. I think today, they live on what is very like a native American reservation. Likely without the government assistance.

 

Found it on wiki ." These two men are modeling armor Jochelson purchased for the American Museum of Natural History"

I would like to see these close up.

Mark G

[uwe]

My first impression was "hunting equipment" for the cold and windy plains. The shield seems to be quite hindering in combat. It should slow down the "access time" to the quiver (.....where is the quiver, anyway?)

I think Piers get a good point here

Uwe

[IanB]

Mark, Yes. Lamellar armour occurs in many early Persian paintings and all over the Middle East. In many cases it was replaced by mail at a later date, often with plates over the vitals (see Mamaluk and later Turkish armours). Lamellar was the ideal type of armour if you did not have access to metalworking facilities capable of making reasonably sized lumps of iron. You can make it out of small scraps of metal, rawhide, bone, antler or even hard wood. We have an early Chinese armour in the Royal Armouries acquired in the 19th C. made of red lacquered rawhide scales. It is of the same form as the two pictured above but without the 'shields' and with the addition of shoulder guards and a rawhide multiplate helmet. The coat part has been relaced several times and some of the scales are replacements but the shoulder guards appear to have the original lacing. Although rawhide lamellar is reasonable, when its made of iron it is unbelievably heavy. We have one from Tibet (that may be Mongol) and it is a nightmare getting it on and off the dummy.

 

Piers, the 'shields' occur on several types of armours. Some Pacific island peoples had armours, of coconut fibre, with a standing shield behind the head to stop the wearer being accidently hit by stones thrown by the women folk, who followed their husbands and contributed their bit to the action. In the case of these Asian armours, the 'shields' are primarily arrow protection. By slightly turning the body when you see an arrow coming at you, they protected the head and face. Exactly the same idea was used by the Japanese with the fukigayeshi of Heian helmets. They stuck out at right-angles from the sides of the helmet so all you needed to do was turn your head and they covered your face.

Ian Bottomley